What do we do if cases rocket in September?

[ncnoclue]

If schools etc being closed means that cases massively drop and we can in fact, live normal lives. And then once they go back, they shoot up again and we can't cope.

Is the plan to keep everything else closed, just to keep schools open? So even though everyone who wants it has been vaccinated and there's no other answer, we keep the economy closed indefinitely to keep schools open?!

Smoking has pros and cons
No, it really doesn't. And I'm an ex heavy smoker who fell for the 'smoking relieves stress' bullshit for years.

Someone upthread mentioned Israel, and why their population immunity seems to be dropping after a successful vax programme. It's possibly due to the fact they followed the 3 weeks between doses protocol when optimal immunity is now known to be reached after an 8 week interval for Pfizer So they probably never reached maximum immunity. Booster doses should take care of that though.

Well it does - including for the national economy.

Just because it didn't give you stress relief, doesn't mean it's the same for others. You are one individual and everyone's experiences are different.

In London alone there are 165,000 people homeless. Across the UK, millions live in substandard and/or insecure housing.

Many of the vulnerably or not housed are disabled or long term ill.

The UN has condemned the UK's incredibly poor treatment of the disabled.

Housing is one of life's most basic essentials. Poor or no housing is a major public health crisis. It impacts hugely on physical and mental health.

Unlike smoking (which is something the government are keen on - a choice made by personal responsibility), housing insecurity and/or being disabled is not a personal responsibility choice.

Rubbish it's so Very Bad to smoke. There are far more serious public health issues happening - and pretty much fuck all is done about them. That's the level of government and public concern about Bad For You health issues.

@CaptainMerica

I think they should be looking to re-jig the school year temporarily to add in "firebreaks" to limit transmission getting out of control. It was clear this spring/summer, that cases in Scotland spiralled quicker, as there was no half-term in May, which slowed things down in England.

I think a 4 weeks in, one week off strategy or similar might help keep a lid on it.

Thats a interesting idea although if they did that that would be admitting kids and school a problem.

Its staggering they not offering jabs to teens this summer and adding in extra ventilation.
Education is an afterthought as ever.

The government doesn't give two shits about public health.

They can't preach anti smoking messages with any kind of credibility, when at the same time introducing measures that worsen public health. Eg. Rishi Sunak's syamp duty holiday, which cost the taxpayer billions in lost tax revenue, and further inflated the housing bubble.

For years homeless people are sometimes unable to undergo surgery because they don't live in an environment suitable for post surgical recovery. This was happening and being reported on (albeit not headline news) at least 6 or 7 years ago. It's likely it was going on for quite some time. But it's ok. Because the person doesn't smoke....

And - this is the government taking an approach re Covid that will kill and disable many.

No secure affordable housing (one of life's most basic essentials), the disabled struggling in deprivation. But, people, it's Very Very Bad to smoke...

There's a thread right now with a social worker and separately, a nursing home manager on it. People who work with some of society's most vulnerable - frail elderly and the disabled. They don't want the Covid vaccine but also want to keep on doing their (clearly inappropriate) jobs, keep on visiting the highly vulnerable. No matter the extreme distress and fear caused to many of their incredibly vulnerable and helpless sitting duck residents (and their families). They, unlike the workers, have no choice in being vulnerable and needing unsafe 'care'.

One of the arguments being put across on that thread (and others like it) is the claim that care is already unsafe. Underfunded, short staffed (many there resentfully and only because of being forced by jobcentes).

Giving up smoking to live longer.... Really?? To end up neglected and unprotected in a care home?

Quality is more important than longevity. Some might not enjoy smoking, but many do - they derive pleasure and/or stress relief from it. Smoking is also linked to lowering the risk of Parkinson's Disease. If they're happy with smoking, so what? They're bringing in a net gain to the national economy.

Why the huge public and government concern about smoking, yet more serious public health is ignored? Homelessness, disability poverty, care home neglect and unsafe care.

Why does the government want us to cower from cigarette smoke, but at the same time 'live with' a disease that kills and disables?

How does that public health message work?

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion Tealightsandd has majority shares in Pfizer and Moderna grin.

Actually I have shares in just one pharmaceutical company. Astrazeneca. Which reminds me. I still hold paper shares. I really must get around to changing that.

Not that having those shares is the reason why I've repeatedly posted that AZ, whilst possibly is not as effective as mRNA vaccines particularly against Beta, it is still good and worth having. It's also not the reason why I've been posting about the boosters that AZ are working on - tweaked to give better protection against Delta and Beta.

Personal responsibility comes with access to transparent information. Or at least it should.

Why has this thread turned into a pro smoking propaganda exercise

[quote Wouldyoudothesame]@TraumatizedFlower genuinely asking as I don't understand...I thought that people who had Covid could get it again so how would be achieve herd immunity this way? Do people actually develop immunity from catching Covid?[/quote]
You can catch it a second time, but you're unlikely to for many months, possible a few years, after the first infection as you'll have immunity. And when you do get it, it is likely to be milder as you'll have a degree of immunity to mitigate its worst effects.

So we'll likely never reach herd immunity to the point of eradicating Covid, rather that it will bubble along once most people have had it or been vaccinated without the big waves we got with a pristine population relying on natural immunity alone.

@Tealightsandd the link I posted was not for a reformulated AZ but for the current one! It doesn’t need reformulating as it’s already very effective.

To answer the OPs question, nothing for a few weeks if the response at each stage of the pandemic is anything to go by. Certainly nothing before the Conservative Party conference in early October.

@Tealightsandd

Why does the government want us to cower from cigarette smoke, but at the same time 'live with' a disease that kills and disables?

How does that public health message work?

Because there are many many diseases that kill and disable in small numbers much like this one will carry on doing forever. Without sounding harsh there will be and is an acceptable number of deaths for covid year and they will have a figure in their head. We could save loads more lives of other illnesses if we put the money towards it but we can't justify the cost for the relatively small amount of lives saved.

Tuba437
That doesn't answer my question. Why do we need to 'cower' from smoking but must at the same time dismiss Other People being killed or disabled by Covid?

It doesn't make sense. Given that the government is now so keen on personal responsibility and freedom. And it particularly doesn't make sense if we are to go by your argument - of putting money first. Smoking brings a net gain to the national economy. Unlike Covid. Like you say, the money (from smoking) could be used towards saving lives from other illnesses.

Although, why do we need to save so many lives? Afterall, Covid has clearly demonstrated that living a long life is not something to be valued. The lack of protection for elderly care home residents is just one stark example of that.

Talking of money. Long Covid. Diabetes is just one of the many issues resulting from Covid. Then there's the potential organ damage. Costly - both in terms of individual health, and to the public purse.

Smoking brings in a net gain to the national economy. It's also a choice. Unlike a Covid death and the chronic health problems of Long Covid.

Things won't change wrt the hypocrisy on smoking. We are not to deviate from the it's Very Bad line. But that doesn't change the facts or reality.

We could save loads more lives of other illnesses if we put the money towards it but we can't justify

Yes, we need to urgently tackle the serious public health crisis of homelessness and insecure housing. Millions of lives are cut short by it - and the health (and societal) consequences of the crisis costs the economy billions every year.

But strangely, despite the apparent public health concern, i.e. smoking is Very Very Bad, I don't see anything being done about the extremely serious public health crisis of poor and no housing. Ever so odd that.

@GintyMcGinty

Cases numbers don't matter.

Hospitalisation and deaths matter. They would have to go back to the point if the NHS not being able to cope before anything will happen.

If the vaccines keep working then there will be no changes no matter the case nos.

This.

[quote RoseWineTime]@Tealightsandd the link I posted was not for a reformulated AZ but for the current one! It doesn’t need reformulating as it’s already very effective.[/quote]
That's good news.

And like I said, even if it isn't quite as effective as the mRNA (Pfizer and Moderna) vaccines, it's still good and worth having.

I'm not sure I agree, however, with the suggestion by AZ scientists that concerns over AZ efficacy is what's fuelling vaccine hesitancy? Isn't it (hesitancy) highest amongst the younger age groups - who will be getting Pfizer or Moderna (as they're under 40). Unless they mean hesitancy in other parts of the world? Perhaps that's it. Hopefully people (worldwide) will be now be reassured.

Hospitalisation and deaths matter.

And Long Covid cases.

@Tealightsandd

Hospitalisation and deaths matter.

And Long Covid cases.

I do think long covid needs to be defined better. Yes of course people need to be aware of some people having life changing things happen with long covid. However a slight cough or fatigue for a few weeks after infection falls into the category of long covid. That should not be compared with life changing disabilities.

And life changing disabilities is what Long Covid is for many. Including organ damage and clotting (not picked up on in standard scans), eye problems, hearing loss, and diabetes. Whether menstrual changes and erectile dysfunction count as disability, I don't know, but they are certainly issues which can be life changing.

Fatigue does not mean feeling a bit tired. It's about debilitating exhaustion.

If they go up in September we can just blame students and the young in general again, they were the scapegoats last time so why not again? And then to reassure the country something is being done we can introduce restrictions that mainly only harm the young, poor and vulnerable. Again.

@FannyandJohn

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

@FannyandJohn your username just made me laugh so hard I spit my wine out

@Tealightsandd

And life changing disabilities is what Long Covid is for many. Including organ damage and clotting (not picked up on in standard scans), eye problems, hearing loss, and diabetes. Whether menstrual changes and erectile dysfunction count as disability, I don't know, but they are certainly issues which can be life changing.

Fatigue does not mean feeling a bit tired. It's about debilitating exhaustion.

I'm just saying that it should be separated to reflect the seriousness. I've had colds before when I'm still bunged up a couple of weeks later and I don't think anything of it.

Also whos to say people don't recover from covid and catch another cold within days and then report it as long covid as they could have had symptoms for 2 different illnesses spanning over 2 weeks.

My nursery aged child has caught 4 or 5 colds in the last couple of months as they have had no exposure to anything for the last year and a half.

I think the government would be on shaky ethical ground if they refused to vaccinate over 12s (current situation) although the vaccine is approved for them and the US and EU are doing this, but still expected that age group to be locked down with home learning or subject to harsher restrictions than over 18s. One or the other choice - can't do both without being unethical.

Seems Ferguson has just said the pandemic may well be over by October: www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/uk-coronavirus-pandemic-over-september-vaccines-neil-ferguson-b947801.html

Coming from him, you have to laugh; if you didn't you'd cry

@Puzzledandpissedoff that's good news though?