96 dead today...

[Homeontherangeuk]

But Boris knows what he's doing...

@duffeldaisy

"Also how can we have zero covid if even the vaccines don't stop you getting covid? confused"

That is exactly the point! That's where proper, full lockdowns, track and trace, financial support for those isolating, investment in air filtration, people wearing masks for each other, etc etc comes in!!!

Too late for all that now, of course. The vaccines are the answer - they’ve proven that they are, in general - and they have to be. Life with restrictions is no life at all.

@duffeldaisy

"Also how can we have zero covid if even the vaccines don't stop you getting covid? confused"

That is exactly the point! That's where proper, full lockdowns, track and trace, financial support for those isolating, investment in air filtration, people wearing masks for each other, etc etc comes in!!!

Seeing how tough that is in Australia with the space they have and population density and distinct states who can act independently modelling has shown it will be late August/early September before they achieve under 5 cases

www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-20/nsw-lockdown-needs-to-run-to-september-for-delta-cases-to-drop/100307698

So that is potentially 2.5 months for the case numbers they have had.

That is exactly the point! That's where proper, full lockdowns, track and trace, financial support for those isolating, investment in air filtration, people wearing masks for each other, etc etc comes in!!!

And fuck everyone and everything else, so long as Covid is gone right? This is a petulant and extremely narrow minded point of view, there is so much more at play here than just Covid. It's called balance. Zero Covid will never be the aim, best to get over it now.

@brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Are the numbers of deaths rising ? : YES

Is that the best time to open up ? : NO

Are the number of deaths rising exponentially at a rate hospitals can’t cope with? : NO

Is that the best time to open up ? : There will never be a “best time”. It has to happen at some point. People who don’t want to mix with others or take the risk going out are welcome to stay at home and do their own lockdown.

We need some perspective here.

Far more people survive covid than die from it.

It is never going to go away, so finding a way to live with it is imperative.

We can carry on wearing masks and keeping our distance from others if it makes us feel safer. (A trip to the supermarket yesterday saw almost everyone still wearing them here, and that is not unique to my area).

Life has been on hold for long enough for most people. We quantify covid daily but may never fully realise the loss and deprivation suffered by many due to the downturn in the economy, and the lack of other health care provision.

Our vaccination rate is envied in most European countries, and it is by no means at an end.

Completely agree with you @name6785 that zero covid shouldn't be the end-game and is unachievable.

But the government has spent coming up for 18 months hammering home to people how dangerous it is, how going to Aldi risks killing granny, that we mustn't do x, y or z. Covid has been the lead story on the news for every bulletin since March 2021. Covid, Covid, Covid.

For many people it IS all that matters and every single death from covid is a death too many.

Never mind the hundreds of people who die every day from different things, doesn't matter, zero Covid is the only goal.

@duffeldaisy - polio has (almost) been eradicated because babies are vaccinated. How long would it take to rid ourselves of covid if we adopted this route?! Plus how many people would reject a vaccine for their babies?

We cannot get to zero covid unless every citizen of the world isolates for six weeks. So that’s holing up with all your food, no power, no emergency services, no medical assistance….. Who is up for that?

That's where proper, full lockdowns, track and trace, financial support for those isolating, investment in air filtration, people wearing masks for each other, etc etc comes in!!!

Yes, this sounds very familiar. Covid free paradise advocated for by the zero Covid crowd...

We have been trying lockdowns since March 2020. They are only a "pause" button not an ultimate solution. All the other measures are not going to bring Covid to zero. They make nice slogans but they do not make a significant impact on the course of pandemic (although ventilation is indeed useful).

Can’t believe the number of people who don’t think we need to get on with living again. If we can’t get back to some normality there will be thousands more dead from suicides and hundreds of thousands more unemployed plunging more people in to absolute poverty. That should scare people more than covid.

As for other countries, look them up on the WHO statistics.
Most countries are doing better than us.
Taiwan have had fewer deaths during the entire pandemic than we had in one day. (769). We had 3x the number of cases today that they've had during the whole pandemic (15,429)

New Zealand have managed to have only 2,822 cases & 26 deaths in the entire pandemic.

Australia has had 32,129 cases - again fewer than we had just today - and 915 deaths, and what they consider 'having a problem' with it now is so much more manageable.

Meanwhile we've managed 5.47million cases and 129, 000 deaths.
You cannot seriously look at those figures and say we're getting anything right.

@Egghead68

Could you please provide us with an option that doesn't include an exit wave over the winter, doesn't ruin our economy and mental health further

Well one way that would avoid an exit wave would be to get herd immunity (for now at least) through vaccination before opening up. Israel did not have an exit wave. It’s not inevitable.

This would have worked with Alpha, but is wrong for the Delta variant.

Gibraltar has almost 100% vaccination. They also have greater cases/population than the UK currently. Israel is just starting their Delta wave.

An exit wave is a certainty, and huge numbers of cases are inevitable. Get jabbed and protect yourself from severe illness.

There will be more deaths with more cases, even if people are vaccinated. This is because the death figures aren’t people who died “of covid” they are people who were positive at the time of their death.

If we have more of the population infected the chances of a person who dies being covid positive is obviously higher.

Until they start reporting people of die of covid, not with covid, then the figures aren’t overly reliable.

We absolutely do have this attitude to other things. We could completely ban alcohol.and smoking and save countless lives.... why don't we just do this then?? Or ban cars and save lives their. Or ban swimming and save lives their...

All of these things have a risk of death that is acceptable to the wider society.

Every time I say that there isn't anyone that can give a good answer.

But we don’t just put alcohol and cigarettes and cars into the public with no warnings or no risk management.

Swimming pools have lifeguards and outdoor water bodies have buoyancy aids to reduce risks and help prevent deaths.

Cars have seatbelts and impact testing and things like speed limits and traffic calming implemented to again, help reduce deaths.

Alcohol and Cigarettes make the government w shit tonne of money so they’d never be banned but they’re age restricted, come with warnings etc.

Things like masks, and social distancing and other risk management help prevent deaths. It’s the same thing, but that’s “taking away freedoms” accord to the hard of thinking.

A couple of years ago I caught a virus and was in hospital for weeks.

A few months ago a colleague spent one night in hospital with covid.

Guess who was the hero and got all the sympathy and messages of support from all and sundry? Pah.

Most countries are doing better than us.

For a European country with high population density and a democratic government we are just about average. Here is the latest excess deaths comparison:

www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker

(to draw comparisons across different countries we need to look at excess deaths rather than Covid deaths which are calculated differently from country to country depending on testing capabilities and reporting definitions).

i'm in my 50's statistically the chance of me or any other person my age not reaching my next birthday is 1 in 50 ie 2% of all people aged 50 die every year before they reach 51; obviously the risk is not equally spread among all people exactly 50
however this risk does not stop 99.95% of 50 year olds doing anything
when you are 90 the risk of not making 91 is about 25% on the other hand when you are 10 the risk of not making 11 is 0.00007%
for the whole of May and June 10 times more people died of flu and pneumonia than of covid and overall deaths are below the 5 year average for a few months
death numbers out of context mean nothing in June Covid was the 24th most common cause of death, ie 23 other things were more likely to cause death

Why blame Boris? If people took more responsibility for their own safety, perhaps the cases would go down.

If we can’t get back to some normality there will be thousands more dead from suicides
Why does this always get trotted out when it’s simply not true. There hasn’t been a document rise in suicide over the lockdowns / pandemic so please stop using MH victims as fodder for your shakey arguments about your “freedom”.

Fortunately, provisional suicide rates for 2020 in England has found no evidence that national suicide rates increased. And evidence from the National Confidential Inquiry (NCISH) and the University of Manchester suggests suicide rates during the first national lockdown in England have not been impacted in the way that many of us were concerned about.
Source/ Samaritans

Last stats I looked at, 40% of Covid patients in hospital were not admitted with Covid but tested positive on admission. This could mean that up to 40% of Covid deaths are deaths with Covid NOT deaths of Covid.

Saint Nicola of Sturgeon, Chief Mammy of Scotland is making all the same decisions as Boris - just a few weeks behind.

Life needs to go on. We need to learn to deal with Covid.

I just despair at the level things have to get to with deaths and long covid and people being unable to work because of illness/isolating before there's a consensus that we do have to do something and that government does have to protect us.
But it seems that at the moment people are okay with being left to their own devices, and vulnerable people being unsupported. We can demand better than this, we really can.

We have been doing something the last 18 months. Christ.

Maybe not committing suicide, but pretty sad all the same. The duffel daisy person wanting “full lockdowns” has clearly never been young and starting out in life, but only beamed straight into a family unit, comfortable state of financial security and pleasant living conditions.

Zero covid would never be achieved but.. What could be achieved with evry single day is some of sort of of game changing break through.

Lat flow tests are poor, shoddy and only show up occasionally positives.
What if an amazing saliva or even breath test was created! Cheap and easy to produce.. Absolute game changer.
Something like that, and once we go through another winter I do feel we will be in a far scientifically stronger position to tackle covid and get back to normal.

The stats are under representing Covid deaths, as many people discharged from hospital go on to die as a result of Covid - but because that is well after the 28 day cut off from a positive test, they never appear in these stats (but may have covid on the death cert).