People who say 'We've got to learn to live with it'

[Mixmeup]

People say this when they mean, 'I think we should ignore Covid, crack on, never mention it again and tough shit to the vulnerable'.

Before anyone asks, yes I absolutely believe we've got to learn to live with it. But my version of 'We've got to learn to live with it' means we've got to find a way to open up society, live our lives and deal with Covid better at the same time. Not just attempt to go back to exactly how everything was before and stick our fingers in our ears. I'm talking about continuing to work on improving treatments, rolling out vaccinations and looking at improving them, funding the NHS much, much better, improving ventilation in schools, working on reducing crowding in schools, encouraging hybrid working - etc etc. Why does 'learning to live with Covid' mean throwing all the restrictions out of the window rather than actually finding ways forward?

@Kazzyhoward But that doesn't mean SD and mask wearing doesn't work. We have to look at what else happened that contributed to the rise in cases. Perhaps removing any mitigation measures from schools at the same time as not stopping flights in from India. What impact might it have had on cases and transmission if children were still having to wear masks in schools then?

[quote BonnesVacances]@Kazzyhoward But that doesn't mean SD and mask wearing doesn't work. We have to look at what else happened that contributed to the rise in cases. Perhaps removing any mitigation measures from schools at the same time as not stopping flights in from India. What impact might it have had on cases and transmission if children were still having to wear masks in schools then? [/quote]
Those points have happened and no longer relevant to what happens now and in the next few weeks. Schools are about to close anyway. People DID come from India. We can't turn back time. The only thing that matters now is what we do over the next few weeks. Masks and SD will make a tiny difference to the trajectory of infections. If we want to reduce the rate of infections, we need to reverse other restrictions and maybe close non essential retail, close pubs/restaurants, etc.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting we stop looking into improving treatments or vaccines whether or not you think we should live with it or not.

I personally think we need to start getting back to normal. There are other risks in live too and many (such as medical treatment for other conditions) are being impacted by Covid restrictions. The level of vaccinated means restrictions can now be loosened

@Kazzyhoward Yes good point. Unfortunately this just fuels people's belief that the only options are lockdown or let loose. Living with it (once we have a handle on this latest wave) needs to be a compromise between the two, and continuing simple mitigation measures such as SD and masks should allow businesses to reopen and for everyone to go back to an adjusted normal. It's madness that some people believe burying their heads in the sand and wishing really hard for Covid to go away will miraculously save businesses and the economy.

@CayrolBaaaskin

I don’t think anyone is suggesting we stop looking into improving treatments or vaccines whether or not you think we should live with it or not.

I personally think we need to start getting back to normal. There are other risks in live too and many (such as medical treatment for other conditions) are being impacted by Covid restrictions. The level of vaccinated means restrictions can now be loosened

Medical treatment for other conditions is being impacted by a failure to control Covid leading to medical services being overwhelmed and unable to deal with anything else, not by measures introduced to control it. Genuinely what do you think will happen if hospitals etc get overwhelmed again? Do you really think cancer treatment is going to be prioritised and it'll be easier to get a f2f GP appointment when we have 100,000 Covid cases?

And has proved not to work. We're heading towards 100k cases per day even with SD, masks, hand washing etc. To slow/stop the spread, we need to reverse restriction relaxations, or probably even have another lockdown. If you don't want cases to continue to rise, we need to take a step back, close indoors bars/restaurants, maybe close non essential retail, etc etc. Is that what you want

I don’t think anyone’s claimed mask wearing stops people catching Covid. But that it reduces the spread.

If we continue to wear masks in some public spaces it helps those who want to reduce their risk actually do that.
For example if you are heading to a restaurant on the tube / bus you wear a mask. Then others who have to use public transport get some protection. Once you are in the restaurant - no masks. If you are vulnerable you have the choice to avoid the restaurant / bar / nightclub.

I think we have to open up again. But I really don’t see why we can’t improve hygiene and wear masks in some public spaces.

Covid but remember it is a balance like a set of scales. Lock down too much and you kill people from suicide, domestic violence, failure to spot cancers and all sorts. It is not as simple as lockdown and you save lives. Lockdown too much and you can cause more deaths than not locking down and your argument could go the other way. Also bankrupt the nation and we cannot afford to pay the wages of doctors and nurses - just as important of course as keeping everyone shut up.

But my version of 'We've got to learn to live with it' means we've got to find a way to open up society, live our lives and deal with Covid better at the same time. Not just attempt to go back to exactly how everything was before and stick our fingers in our ears. I'm talking about continuing to work on improving treatments, rolling out vaccinations and looking at improving them, funding the NHS much, much better, improving ventilation in schools, working on reducing crowding in schools, encouraging hybrid working - etc etc.

I think this most people's version of 'we've got to learn to live with it'. Alongside all of this we also need to be realistic about how many people have died because of lockdowns. Lockdown is no more risk free than just opening everything up and doing things like before is.

Having had to go to work throughout with very little protection I realised that the risk while real, has been very much over exaggerated. I'd rather die than live for years in and out of lockdowns

I’m not convinced the risk has been exaggerated. I remember calling 999 for my son for a non Covid related reason. Call handler responded, we’ll send an ambulance now. Then they came back on the line and asked if I could drive him in instead. No ambulances free due to Covid patients.

No one is suggesting another lockdown. The vaccine has been a huge success. Just extra (continued) hygiene measures and more funding for the strapped NHS.

I totally agree with you op and it is partly a result of the press and sm that we are so polarised on this subject and it is all one way or another. Happily, I think many ordinary people take sensible precautions while opening up their lives in a prudent "middle" way. There is always room for a bit of common sense!

Similarly it seems odd and disingenuous to me that Boris seems to be taking an all or nothing approach to July 19th. I can't understand why he couldn't open up things gradually, in a measured step by step fashion, like most other countries.

[quote BonnesVacances]**@Kazzyhoward* Yes good point. Unfortunately this just fuels people's belief that the only* options are lockdown or let loose. Living with it (once we have a handle on this latest wave) needs to be a compromise between the two, and continuing simple mitigation measures such as SD and masks should allow businesses to reopen and for everyone to go back to an adjusted normal. It's madness that some people believe burying their heads in the sand and wishing really hard for Covid to go away will miraculously save businesses and the economy.[/quote]
SD doesn't allow businesses to operate profitably. A pub or restaurant or theatre NEEDS to be at a decent capacity to make enough money to pay the bills, pay the staff, pay the loans, and make a profit. These places are only just surviving because of furloughing the staff, bounce back loans, business rates holiday (which has now ended), etc etc.

We, as taxpayers, need to accept higher taxes across the board if we are to continue to subsidise businesses (and other organisations) that can't operate at normal capacities.

@Tendonsandjoints

I totally agree with you op and it is partly a result of the press and sm that we are so polarised on this subject and it is all one way or another. Happily, I think many ordinary people take sensible precautions while opening up their lives in a prudent "middle" way. There is always room for a bit of common sense!

Similarly it seems odd and disingenuous to me that Boris seems to be taking an all or nothing approach to July 19th. I can't understand why he couldn't open up things gradually, in a measured step by step fashion, like most other countries.

Err? We have been opening up gradually since March. Trouble is that every time we opened more up, infections rose, which is inevitable really. The whole plan is to open up for Summer, whilst a lot of things happen outdoors, whilst schools are closed, people are away from workplaces on holiday etc. If we don't open up now, mid July, we'll never open up. We've already delayed the final relaxation by a month - what good has it done? None.

@KimmyAndMe

Your pregnancy was self inflicted. Why should the NHS help

Ummm… because that’s what they are there for? If they weren’t I would have paid private or had them at home with no health care provision? That would have been my decision.

You have refused the covid jab because you are “scared”. Why do think NHS staff would be happy to put themselves and their families at risk to care for you if you present with covid symptoms?

You have chosen to not have the vaccine. Why do you think NHS staff should choose to care for you if you need to be admitted to ICU?

Do you think NHS staff should have the same choice as you?

I feel you are being deliberately obtuse now and there is no point trying to reason with you or try to explain things further.

I just hope you don't need the NHS soon.

@CayrolBaaaskin

I don’t think anyone is suggesting we stop looking into improving treatments or vaccines whether or not you think we should live with it or not.

I personally think we need to start getting back to normal. There are other risks in live too and many (such as medical treatment for other conditions) are being impacted by Covid restrictions. The level of vaccinated means restrictions can now be loosened

Medical treatment for other conditions will not be negatively impacted by wearing masks in risky situations, or by social distancing.

Not wearing masks or social distancing runs a risk of increasing transmission, therefore putting more pressure on the health service and impacting medical treatment for other conditions.

Hospitality will be affected but i don't see why most of europe can manage with table service but we can't

When restaurants in Soho had to have tables outside it caused a major problem for people in wheelchairs who couldnt get past. You are usually quite on the ball with stuff like this @jasjas1973

I suppose a lot of shops and supermarkets will scrap supplying hand sanitiser.

@Covidworries

we received a PIP letter yesterday There have been some changes in the PIP law that affect how PIP claims are decided. (in our case it says DH isnt affected) but here is a list from the back of the letter.

The people affected by these changes will most likely have a severe
cognitive impairment
intellectual impairment
developmental impairment
mental health condition.
Or a condition affecting the brain and nervous system with symptoms such as
blackouts fits or faints with loss of consciousness.

@Zig27

I suppose a lot of shops and supermarkets will scrap supplying hand sanitiser.

There's now a plentiful supply of cheap small pocket sized bottles of hand sanitizer available in all supermarkets and pharmacies. Nothing to stop people buying their own and carrying it with them. It's what I did long before covid given how many public loos didn't have soap (lots didn't even have hot water!).

@Zig27

I suppose a lot of shops and supermarkets will scrap supplying hand sanitiser.

I never used it anyway. Watered down and vile smelling at times. The "sanitation stations" they are on also tend to look miles away from being sanitary. I always carry my own.

This is the same as Churchill ending the blackout in 1942 because people were sick of it. Fingers in ears, lalala the Germans aren’t bombing any more! Global events don’t end or go away just because you’re sick of them and it’s foolish to pretend they do. We need to continue with Covid restrictions until the pandemic has abated, even if that takes years.

@PRabbit

This is the same as Churchill ending the blackout in 1942 because people were sick of it. Fingers in ears, lalala the Germans aren’t bombing any more! Global events don’t end or go away just because you’re sick of them and it’s foolish to pretend they do. We need to continue with Covid restrictions until the pandemic has abated, even if that takes years.

Regardless of the negative impact the restrictions are having?

@MercyBooth

Are the changes to PIP positive or negative for claimants? (That's probably a really stupid question) Do you have a link for more information please?

I cant find anything as specific as what was on the back of the letter.

Is there an indication of what the new changes are called, or when they will come into play? Am thinking something I can google.