People who say 'We've got to learn to live with it'

[Mixmeup]

People say this when they mean, 'I think we should ignore Covid, crack on, never mention it again and tough shit to the vulnerable'.

Before anyone asks, yes I absolutely believe we've got to learn to live with it. But my version of 'We've got to learn to live with it' means we've got to find a way to open up society, live our lives and deal with Covid better at the same time. Not just attempt to go back to exactly how everything was before and stick our fingers in our ears. I'm talking about continuing to work on improving treatments, rolling out vaccinations and looking at improving them, funding the NHS much, much better, improving ventilation in schools, working on reducing crowding in schools, encouraging hybrid working - etc etc. Why does 'learning to live with Covid' mean throwing all the restrictions out of the window rather than actually finding ways forward?

Your pregnancy was self inflicted. Why should the NHS help

Ummm… because that’s what they are there for? If they weren’t I would have paid private or had them at home with no health care provision? That would have been my decision.

You have refused the covid jab because you are “scared”. Why do think NHS staff would be happy to put themselves and their families at risk to care for you if you present with covid symptoms?

You have chosen to not have the vaccine. Why do you think NHS staff should choose to care for you if you need to be admitted to ICU?

Do you think NHS staff should have the same choice as you?

I agree with them. If you choose to inflict injuries on yourself why do you expect NHS staff to mop up?

I cannot get past this I am afraid. People with Mental Health problems are let down time and time again. I gave a dd with anxiety and also self harms. Thank God has never required hospital admission but it is possible.
@XenoBitch I am sorry you have had a hard time on here and in real life. I do not agree with much of what you say on this board but still that was wrong.

It's interesting. I have family/friends/colleagues who have been terrified all along who have started saying this now that they are double jabbed.
Unfortunately the whole population isn't double jabbed, young people (who are the ones in hospital right now) are the ones who are now being sacrificed but that's ok because everyone over the age of 40/50 have been double jabbed. It's ridiculous.
Young people followed the rules to keep the older population safe and now they are unwilling to do the same

@Tumbleweed101

We're grown ups and able to risk assess. We have been taught over the last year and half what we need to do to reduce the risk of transmission. There is no longer any need for things like face masks to be legally enforced. Most of us will wear them when it is felt necessary, without the compulsion of law to wear them when it isn't - for example, if you are the only person on a bus at that time why do you need to? Completely different to a packed rush hour one.

I hate wearing facemasks and struggle with glasses misting up, if I could go to the supermarket at a quiet time without the need to wear one then I'll go then rather than at a packed busy time of day where it might still be wise to. There are adjustments we can all make without being made to by law.

I'd love to believe that this is true, but I don't see people saying 'Oh good, I can risk assess for myself now'. I see people saying 'I can't wait to bin the bloody masks.'

I just don't believe you that 'most of us will wear them when it is felt necessary, without the compulsion of law to wear them when it isn't'. You can't judge the majority of the population by your standards, unfortunately.

I absolutely agree with the person who said some venues that are optional could remove mitigation. It's upsetting and frustrating for those who are vulnerable, but you could arguably say that nightclubs are not suitable places for vulnerable people for the foreseeable but that others should get to enjoy them.

But - people need to shop and to use public transport, and to attend their workplaces if they are no longer allowed to work from home, and so those things should be distanced and masked.

Has everyone forgotten about mental health in all this? This constant news cycle about health and a potentially deadly disease as well as many of the measure used to counter the pandemic have been terrible for mental health. The measures have been necessary for now but to continue like this forever will have serious impacts on society.

Just on Mumsnet you hear the stories about people that have developed serious health anxiety and have become prisoners in their own house.

@bluetongue

Has everyone forgotten about mental health in all this? This constant news cycle about health and a potentially deadly disease as well as many of the measure used to counter the pandemic have been terrible for mental health. The measures have been necessary for now but to continue like this forever will have serious impacts on society.

Just on Mumsnet you hear the stories about people that have developed serious health anxiety and have become prisoners in their own house.

Arguably, removing basic safety measures that really don't do more than mildly inconvenience most people (such as masks on public transport) is also pretty terrible for a lot of people's mental health.

Consider the mental health of a mother who has watched her child nearly die and then receive an organ transplant. Her child is now on medication for life and vulnerable. That's going to have done quite a number on her mental health, don't you think? And now think of that mum who has to use the bus to get to work or use the pharmacy to pick up prescriptions and nobody is doing anything to protect her from catching a virus that could kill her child. They're not wearing masks and they're not queuing outside. And each vulnerable person or loved one of a vulnerable person has a story like this. They're not this rare group of people you can tuck away and ignore - they're real people who are part of society. Their mental health matters too - and I just don't believe that the mental health of someone wearing a mask on the bus is going to be worse affected than the mental health of the families who love vulnerable people - or lose them.

Why do you think NHS staff should choose to care for you if you need to be admitted to ICU?

Because as healthcare professionals we care without bloody discrimination and we take an oath as such - or at least we SHOULD. This is why the NHS treats smokers, drug addicts, people who are obese, prisoners, drunk drivers, people who pitch up in A&E after getting injured doing extreme sports, or having been in a car accident that was their fault. And why when I worked in crisis services we listened and supported people, over and over again, who self harmed and/or attempted suicide. Someone has to be fucking suffering badly to do that, even if it’s not a physical illness you can see. As a mental health professional who does NHS and NHS funded work I’m not allowed to discriminate based on vaccine status, mask exempt status or anything else and nor would I want to. And that is 100% AS IT SHOULD BE. All that matters is someone is a patient, regardless of why, we treat them and care for them. We don’t “choose” to treat people. It’s our goddamn job that we chose to do and we go to work and get on with it.

If you aren’t a healthcare worker yourself, get to fuck using us as a shield for your abhorrent views, quite frankly.

We have locked people down for so long - even the times between lockdowns have been restrictive. Life for the young has been curtailed ,many are suffering due to isolation, other people are dying from lack of screening and medical care as they have illnesses other than Covid. The elderly and vulnerable have been prioritised - the y have been protected. We have now a huge vaccination programme but the disease is not gone, it is likely other variants will emerge. We can't stay locked up forever in my view, we can't turn into a society that is continuing frightened that is no life in my opinion. Time has. One to live normally to enjoy life - yes there are precautions that are sensible to take ie perhaps protection on public transport but for the most part life needs to normal again

Has everyone forgotten about mental health in all this

Why is there this assumption that everyone with mental health issues hates lockdown and that it makes their condition worse?

I have relatives with severe mental health problems and they actually prefer lockdown, I suppose in some kind of 'hell is other people' kind of way and I dont blame them, what with the amount of idiots refusing to take on board restrictions. They also want a flattened curve to keep a functioning NHS, not least so they can continue regular medications and treatments

@PineappleMojito

😂😂😂 You are talking out of your arse! I’m an A&E Nurse. We do not want to treat Covid patients - especially when they have refused the vaccine. We have no objection to treating those who cannot have the vaccine for health reasons (there are not many opt out reasons due to health) or pregnant mothers.

We have spent the last 16 months under immense pressure. No more! We cannot cope with anymore.

Why should we put ourselves and our families at risk because someone refused the vaccine and now wants help from the NHS? I have just signed an internal petition opting out of having to treat unvaccinated covid patients. If the internal petition is deemed fruitless I will leave the profession. I don’t see why I should have to treat people who don’t care for me or mine. Ive been through too much over the past 16 months. My family come first from now on. I, previously, put my young family second because there was no choice. Now there is. I will give up everything I know to care for my family from this point on. I’m not interested in those who put their lives at risk because they have refused the vaccine. Not my problem. It’s their choice. They can deal with the fallout.

@CharleyChook cool, so I take it you also don’t want to treat drinkers, smokers, drug takers, people with hepatitis/HIV acquired through drug use or sexual contact, self harmers, people who do extreme sports, drink drivers, obese people, those who have refused other vaccines and get sick, sex workers, or anyone else you deem to have “chosen” their own illness or accidents then?

Weird how it’s just Covid vaccines that seem to be so controversial and yet all these other things are quite acceptable reasons to be treated in A&E. I wonder what the GMC’s non discriminatory principle will mean if this goes through.

FYI I know a lot of nurses, EMTs etc and none of them think like you. So I’m not “talking out of my arse” simply because I don’t share your view. I did, and will continue to crack on with my job even though as you rightly say it’s been tough and I’ll leave the profession before I ever refuse a service to someone because they didn’t have a vaccine, don’t give a flying monkeys what their reasons are. Patients are patients.

@PineappleMojito

Please explain why smokers, drinkers, drug addicts, obese patients pose a risk to you? My DH is a Paramedic. Why do you think they should prioritise a vaccine refuser before a heart attack/bleeding/open fracture/stroke/baby not breathing/unconscious patient…. ? The won’t - fact!

A black and white choice to refuse a vaccine is very different to life long habits although both need to be addressed they can’t always be judged in the same way. Especially when the illness is caused by a v recently refused jab.

@CharleyChook
It’s less about the principle of the risk posed to me than the idea that someone has “brought it on themselves” and therefore doesn’t deserve treatment that I have an issue with. I’ve worked in an A&E and a CAU. I’ve been assaulted by drunk people and people on spice - in my job back then, I’d have taken any number of vaccine refusers over those!

Back in the day people used to bellyache about drug users with HIV and how they shouldn’t get treatment because of the risk they posed to workers. Same short shrift was given then as it should be now with vaccine refusers. Priority based on need for treatment, end of. We used to have debates in my field about withholding psychological treatment for self harmers until they stopped. That practice was also deemed unethical.

I’ve had my vaccines, and I trust them to do their job. Assume you’ve had yours too? I’m interested I guess in why you feel these patients pose such a risk if you’re double vaccinated and as such much less likely to be seriously ill. Of course if people have CEV family or family who can’t have vaccines for non refusing reasons then I see why it could be more worrying and surely redeployment away from likely contact with Covid patients should be an option?

Ethically, I just have a huge issue with the idea that we can accept the principle of leaving someone to suffer because we don’t agree with the decisions they’ve made about their own body, even if they’re bad ones (eg taking drugs, etc). As frustrating as it is dealing with abject refuseniks who won’t listen at all to anything you say (I know a few and aaargh) for me the principle of bodily autonomy trumps anything else I’m afraid.

@KimmyAndMe

The right talk about the deserving/non deserving poor and the left talk about the deserving/ non deserving NHS patient. Quite a disturbing parallel.

Everyone was advised to have the jab to not overwhelm the NHS

Really? Is that the reason. I thought it was to protect ourselves and each other.

cool, so I take it you also don’t want to treat drinkers, smokers, drug takers, people with hepatitis/HIV acquired through drug use or sexual contact, self harmers, people who do extreme sports, drink drivers, obese people, those who have refused other vaccines and get sick, sex workers, or anyone else you deem to have “chosen” their own illness or accidents then

But those things are not a highly infectious risk to health services workers.

FTR I don't think anyone should be refused treatment by the NHS, but refusing the vaccine isnt just about you

Everyone was advised to have the jab to not overwhelm the NHS

MercyBooth
Really? Is that the reason. I thought it was to protect ourselves and each other.

Protecting the NHS is about protecting each other

[quote MercyBooth]@KimmyAndMe

The right talk about the deserving/non deserving poor and the left talk about the deserving/ non deserving NHS patient. Quite a disturbing parallel.[/quote]
It’s a slippery slope, all this.

It’s not acceptable to even think the first two, but suddenly now the last one is up for debate?

“If I don’t treat that guy who was drunk in charge of his car and he dies, he can’t drink drive and harm anyone in future. He might kill my kids behind that wheel one day. Best not treat him”

If I don’t treat the drug addict and he dies, they can’t harm others to fund their habit in future. He might mug my elderly mum one day. Best not treat him.

If I don’t treat the anti vaxxer and she dies, I’m preventing her from spreading Covid and infecting others in future. I could get it or my family. Best not treat her.

@KimmyAndMe Your comments to @XenoBitch are disgusting.

Xeno i hope you are ok

Op I agree its such a black and white stance.

For me we have been learning to live with it and surely we are making some progress with they vaccine but enough with ventilation surely!. Masks in supermarkets, closed spaces esp busses and tube, and ventilation... Windows open doors... And proper clean air systems in schools or crowded work spaces.

@PineappleMojito Thank You so much for what you do. Its because of health workers like you that DH survived his heart attack 15 years ago. He smoked between the ages of nine and 56. Hasnt smoked since the day of his heart attack.

I have just signed an internal petition opting out of having to treat unvaccinated covid patients

Shit a brick

And Yy to the stressed mum /person who is forced to enter spaces with no mitigation measures at all

At my place of work (school) we’ve had covid rip through the staff around Xmas time. We’ve been expected to teach with only face masks and hand gel as protection. But it doesn’t work, hence why 3/4 staff got sick. To us we are happier now that the kids are not wearing masks, it was such a barrier to education.

At first we were frightened but now we are not. Most of us have had the 2 vaccinations and only the younger staff who haven’t.

Society expects us to teach. And if it’s good enough for us to face a classroom of teenagers not wearing masks, then it’s good enough for you.

But on the positive side once you’re forced to learn to live with the risk, you realise how wonderful it is, that for me at least, I can stand in a room full of young people smiling and laughing again. we get to give them that opportunity that they cannot have elsewhere with their friends unless they are socialising at home. The pathetic covid rules we have are like pushing water uphill. If covid was sentient it’d be laughing at us. And yet we continue to scare and pump fear into children and those in social isolation at home, by which I mean the wfh crew and the retired folk. You ought to be more angry about that really.

I do not care if I catch COVID I wouldn’t want to take this summer of freedom and holidays from people (and children are people and just as important).

I’m CEV and I stopped worrying months ago. I wish people would just stop assuming all CEV feel the same way and want severe restrictions, that’s just not true.