People who say 'We've got to learn to live with it'

[Mixmeup]

People say this when they mean, 'I think we should ignore Covid, crack on, never mention it again and tough shit to the vulnerable'.

Before anyone asks, yes I absolutely believe we've got to learn to live with it. But my version of 'We've got to learn to live with it' means we've got to find a way to open up society, live our lives and deal with Covid better at the same time. Not just attempt to go back to exactly how everything was before and stick our fingers in our ears. I'm talking about continuing to work on improving treatments, rolling out vaccinations and looking at improving them, funding the NHS much, much better, improving ventilation in schools, working on reducing crowding in schools, encouraging hybrid working - etc etc. Why does 'learning to live with Covid' mean throwing all the restrictions out of the window rather than actually finding ways forward?

For me, "We've got to learn to live with it" =

what we have been doing and are still doing is unsustainable.

The harms caused by the controls keep getting dismissed as trivial.

We never had clear logic of why certain controls had to happen as they did, which is why no one can agree about when it would be ok to let go of each control.
I thought public decision making was more rational than that in past.

What I want is to not live in a society that expects everyone to proactively monitor for potential covid exposure or symptoms. This is not sustainable (or necessary). It is exactly like a dystopian story, though. Sweet Tooth , anyone?

I wonder how govts will go back to the 'old' fiscal rules (budget, spending, tax burden, borrowing, deficit, etc).. High inflation is probably the planned strategy. I'll be poorer for that; maybe a little less poor if the inflation isn't as wildly high.

Also what’s wrong with an increase in people WFH? Maybe not 5 days a week, but 2/3 WFH days makes sense. Makes sense for YOU maybe. Makes sense for people working out of their bedrooms in shared flats?

Actually it makes zero sense for me, I’m a teacher. Very much need to be in school not at home.

I think it was pretty clear I’m supporting increased WFH, not compulsory WFH. I would be thrilled if a colleague decided to WFH one week instead of coming in and spreading their cold around.

Masks are a faff and a hassle for lots of people who can wear them. If they’re no bother for you, then that’s lovely, but I’m sure you’d agree we can’t tell everyone to do something based on your comfort levels

Getting colds, Covid and the flu are pretty uncomfortable. I just think it would be sensible to wear them in high traffic public places where people can’t avoid social contact. Someone who is clinically vulnerable can avoid going to a nightclub, but they can’t really avoid the tube or a bus. So maybe people wearing masks on the bus is a good idea.

Obviously I wouldn’t suggest wearing them at social gathering. That’s because it’s not mandatory to attend a social gathering.

If one of my friends or family member is sick they normally avoid anything social, so they don’t spread whatever illness they have around.

If we open up with the current expectations of 100k daily cases, that would at current rates produce around 5000 cases of long covid daily... mainly in those unvaccinated... mainly our children.

That will be the lasting legacy of opening up quickly.

[quote orangejuicer]@xenobitch do you think the NHS hasn't protected you then? Genuine question.[/quote]
Given the sheer number of people who caught it IN hospital, no I don't think the NHS has protected people anywhere near enough. There are plenty of people who'd still be alive today had they not gone into a hospital!

@BeyondMyWits

If we open up with the current expectations of 100k daily cases, that would at current rates produce around 5000 cases of long covid daily... mainly in those unvaccinated... mainly our children.

That will be the lasting legacy of opening up quickly.

We're going to hit 100k daily cases if we "open up" or not, given the rate of infections at a time when we still have requirements for mask wearing, social distancing, etc. Scrapping those requirements just means we'll hit 100k a little earlier.

people in hospital usually are too ill to leave -- many would have died if not gone there.

Also what’s wrong with an increase in people WFH? Maybe not 5 days a week, but 2/3 WFH days makes sense.

We had a wasted 200 mile round trip when we had an appointment with a cancer consultant AND the stem cell transfer co-ordinator. Initial appointment was for a Thursday, but the hospital cancelled it and changed it to a Wednesday. Trouble was the transfer co ordinator never worked on Wednesdays. So we turned up, finally got into see the consultant, and he spent the entire appointment phoning/paging the co-ordinator to find out where she was. Obviously she was never going to be there, so it wasted both our time and the consultants, because he didn't want to do the consultation without the co-ordinator present.

Yes, that's an extreme example, but it highlights how hard it can be to manage part time staff, liaise for appointments/meetings, etc. Allowing work from home etc isn't problem free - it comes with a different set of problems., especially if it is flexible.

@yeOldeTrout

people in hospital usually are too ill to leave -- many would have died if not gone there.

Not at all. The vast majority of people who go into hospitals have a realistic expectation of coming out again. You don't go in for a blood test or consultant appointment and worry whether you've made your will. Nor do you expect to die if you go in for routine surgery, a scan or x-ray, a biopsy, a broken limb, to give birth, etc. Even most cancer patients expect treatment to either cure their cancer or at least give them a few more years to live. Not every dies after a stroke or heart attack. Most car accidents result in treatment and ultimate discharge.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Survey yesterday.

So 19% of people want a 10pm curfew “permanently, regardless of the risk from Covid-19”. 26% of people want all nightclubs and casinos closed permanently, again even if there’s no risk.

All this tells me is that around a quarter of the population want government control of all aspects of people’s lives, not because of any virus, but just because.

I was in favour of lockdowns and I’m not sure how I feel about the 19th, but seeing this number of authoritarians makes me more keen to push back against restrictions.

I wonder how many of those 19% would be willing to pay a shed load more tax to pay the benefits of all the staff made redundant throughout the supply chains in the industries affected or the redevelopment of all the buildings that would need to be demolished/re-purposed? It's time people started to think about cause>effect and no action exists in a vacuum - everything we do affects other things, other people, etc.

@Waveafterwaveslowlydrifting

The vulnerable are vaccinated now. Where does it end?

I've said this on every one of these threads. My CEV DS is double vaccinated, but even catching a mild form of Covid will kill him. I'm carrying on the same way after the 19th.

I will still do hands face and space as much as possible. Dh is vulnerable though Nd we have no idea if the vaccine will work and kids not vaccinated.

Yes thats what I mean. Tough shit to the double vaccinated with a 90%+ effective vaccine no-longer vulnerable.

Just like its tough shit to people who get cancer or heart disease, who have AIDS, who catch flu or chickenpox or measles and die from it. Life is tough shit for everyone, eventually, isn't it.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

It will be swamped if a new variant evaded the vaccine.

HUGE "if" there. Should we just never do anything in case something bad happens, however unlikely?

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/10/public-alarm-grows-at-boris-johnsons-plan-for-covid-freedom-day

We had a wasted 200 mile round trip when we had an appointment with a cancer consultant AND the stem cell transfer co-ordinator. Initial appointment was for a Thursday, but the hospital cancelled it and changed it to a Wednesday

I am so sorry that happened, that must have been so upsetting.

The fix is better communication across departments. In reality that person has holidays to take and possibly has sick days too. It’s an administrative issue. Still bloody awful for you to go through.

@Scottishgirl85

OP, pretty much everything in your post IS happening. I work in pharmacy, believe me the vaccine work and treatment investigations will be around forever! My work (huge company) have also introduced hybrid working globally that will be permanent.

That's great but that doesn't change the fact that we've all locked down 'to protect the NHS' and the government has done nothing to make it more robust (not even paying it's staff properly). The school situation is pretty dire. You'd think that given how much people hated having their children working from home, they'd push for better ventilation and smaller classes in schools. Nothing has changed in schools. And let's not forget that we are ditching things on 19th that don't actually need to be ditched, like masks on public transport and in supermarkets - places people actually have to go even if they are vulnerable and won't stop going due to a face mask.

Masks are a faff and a hassle for lots of people who can wear them. If they’re no bother for you, then that’s lovely, but I’m sure you’d agree we can’t tell everyone to do something based on your comfort levels.

This kind of statement makes me uncomfortable tbh. Why is 'faff and hassle' on the same level of consideration as 'family with child with a transplant, who might die if they get Covid'?

I also don't really buy the 'flu' comparisons either. 'X thousand die from flu' type thing. For one thing (as a PP pointed out) we do vaccinate and mitigate, and it still crushes the NHS every winter.

But also... last winter proved that there are ways to reduce flu deaths. I'll happily wear a mask to protect vulnerable people against flu AND Covid rather than 'learning to live with' both of them, meaning I get to live and other people don't.

I've seen a lot of references on different threads to more ventilation in schools. What is actually meant by that other than having windows open?

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

It will be swamped if a new variant evaded the vaccine.

Oh fgs what do we do then stay locked up for ever more people are dying if other illness

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

I really hate masks and so only wear them for the shortest possible time. I really don't think masks being a permanent fixture is sustainable, lots of businesses wouldn't survive

70% of the population support their continued use…

A survey of 1,025 British adults aged 16-75 is hardly 70% of the population?

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

I really hate masks and so only wear them for the shortest possible time. I really don't think masks being a permanent fixture is sustainable, lots of businesses wouldn't survive

70% of the population support their continued use…

No they don't these polls are asking around 2000 people there are 68 million in the U.K.

@BeyondMyWits

If we open up with the current expectations of 100k daily cases, that would at current rates produce around 5000 cases of long covid daily... mainly in those unvaccinated... mainly our children.

That will be the lasting legacy of opening up quickly.

But you don't actually have reliable data to suggest 5000 long covid cases per day! Things are changing all the time. Statistics from just a few months ago are not going to give an accurate picture as the demographic of those catching it is changing. If we do get to 100,000 cases per day then we will get there with or without the restrictions. They are not working now. And it is arguably better to have a wave now over the summer months than push it back to an potentially very difficult flu season. We are vaccinating people as quickly as is possible. We need to look at clinically vulnerable children now and consider vaccinating them but we need to move on now.

"We have to learn to ADAPT to it" might be more fitting and acknowledge that certain things may have to permanently change so we can exist alongside covid for the longer term.