Feeling so low about this new world of vaccines

[blue12345]

Just wondering if anyone else is in the same boat as me? For many reasons, I've decided not to get the Covid vaccine. I' have all my vaccines and all my kids are vaccinated. I state this to show I'm not an anti-vaxxer, although I increasingly feel like one.

I'm feeling very isolated from my friends and family as a result of this. Everyone I meet asks me am I booked in yet, am I double-vaccinated. I don't bother getting into conversations about it , but it still causes me anxiety and has led to friction. A very close friend has asked me a few times have I got an appointment for my vaccine yet and I've tried to brush her off, as I think she will be unlikely to want to spend time around me after she finds out I'm not getting it. I've also found that lots of friends have cut back on their contact with me.

I am very comfortable with my decision, but I'm just so sad that we now live in a world where the segregation of vaccinated and unvaccinated people is allowed, in both interpersonal relations and also looking more and more likely that services like restaurants and travel will be similarly restricted.

And to answer "would I really not want anything to do with someone who refused a medical procedure"
Well, that's whataboutery and straw man in action.
Yes, of course I would still have something to do with a person who refused a medical procedure for a valid and proven reason. Why wouldn't I?

A vaccine is NOT a medical procedure. In any case, I am not meeting vaccine refusers indoors simply because I worry for CV DH and unvaxxed DS doing his A levels. I didn't meet anyone indoors post March 2020 before a vaccine either, so am consistent in that. I notice the vaccine refusers are very keen to defend putting their own health first, but not so keen on others following the same reasoning and putting the health of their families first. I think we are all free to prioritise our families. You are free to not take the vaccine because you don't want your children to be orphans and I am free to avoid you.

@CrunchyCarrot
Immunity from natural infection isn't inferior to vaccine-induced immunity, which is what you appear to be suggesting. This is just wrong. Immunity will last just as long and immunity via natural infection is 'broader' as one's body makes antibodies to various parts of the whole virus, not just the spike protein. Both vaccination and natural infection are different routes to immunity, but they are equally good

But that doesn't seem to be what the science says. For example, this brand new study shows 2 doses of the vaccine are much more protective than antibodies from the virus alone

twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1413152288579850252?s=19

@Geamhradh

I respect anyone who has a different opinion to me and can tell me why without giving me misleading data about why they're right. My line is drawn at the utter selfishness and, frankly, crackpot lack of intelligence with the anti-vax community. In all these years, (21 on MN and counting) this argument has come up more times than many others, and I've yet to see anyone (who hasn't been told by their doctor not to have a vaccine) come up with a reason that isn't a) inherently selfish b) arrived at by foraging in the worst, most obviously fake, data posted on the web by those with a horse in the race. Do I want to associate with people like that? Nope. Do I get to decide? Yep.

Very well said!!

Don't you think we should be turning our anger towards Boris now and his reckless re-opening? That's going to cause large scale damage.

The repercussions of the unvaccinated are miniscule in comparison to those of - the elephant in a china shop - actions of Boris.

If I discovered a friend had decided not to get the vaccine I’d feel I’d discovered that they were selfish and a bit thick. I’d definitely pull away

Don't you think we should be turning our anger towards Boris now and his reckless re-opening? That's going to cause large scale damage.
I am always angry with our government on their 'handling' of the pandemic.

I can still also be angry at individuals of (I assume) reasonable intelligence who nonetheless choose not to have the vaccine.
Our government's determination to push ahead, for purely political reasons, with lifting restrictions should only make us all MORE keen to get the vaccine, for everyone's sake.

Well, you’ve considered what’s best for you and made your decision. Your family and friends considered what’s best for them and made theirs. Why you are surprised? So in your view you can do what you want but they can’t?

You’ve said that they are double vaccinated and not vulnerable. I’m sure they would say that you don’t have underlying conditions and can be vaccinated.

Are you the same person? Yes. However they’ve probably realized that they didn’t know you well and so now they’ve changed their minds about socializing with you.

Don't you think we should be turning our anger towards Boris now and his reckless re-opening? That's going to cause large scale damage

I am angry with the incompetence of Gvt throughout. Especially the mid-management of the endless incoming flights, the previous run-ups to lockdown that ensured kids went back to school in Sept and Jan with maximum infection exposure.

But now so many are vaccinated that it is those who chose NOT to get vaxxed that are a significant part of the current risk, and the risk of new variants being evolved and incubated.

The non-vaxxed-by-choice are undermining the huge vaccination achievement, and I fail to see why the country should be held hostage in lockdown because if them.

Most of us can be angry in more than one direction.

@Dustyboots

Don't you think we should be turning our anger towards Boris now and his reckless re-opening? That's going to cause large scale damage.

The repercussions of the unvaccinated are miniscule in comparison to those of - the elephant in a china shop - actions of Boris.

I’m not particularly angry about unvaccinated but I hope enough have got their risk assessment right

@blue12345

Hospitalisation rates and deaths are not rising in relation to higher cases though, which means the most vulnerable are protected.

Lots of you have replied and said that the vaccinated can still get Covid. I understand that, but breakthrough infections are meant to be rare and also mild? This is supposedly the benefit of a vaccine that millions of people have taken. What then is the point if they're still afraid to mix with society? In case they get mild Covid?

I just am baffled how many of you think it's ok to just cut contact with a friend based on one viewpoint, having never given them other reasons to doubt me before.

Because people have been filled with fear propaganda for so long now that they believe that if every single person they come into contact with isn't jabbed, that we're all doomed. No one wants to do any alternative research (from scientists & doctors who, until they dared question the narrative, were esteemed in their field) into potential side effects of an experimental 💉 & the psychological war fare that the media & government have implemented has worked. They're definitely wanting to create a 'them & us' society where we're the social pariahs & lepers - there's never been such a marketing campaign before. All these variants being found (how is joe bloggs tested for a variant with a LFT or PCR (which picks up everything as it's run too high) - they don't test for specifics & now, all the kids off schools, just in time to push for the jabs for kids for September.

I haven't & won't be getting the jab. I have reasons - aside from research, I was vax injured from the swine flu jab I was coerced into getting while pregnant (& which has since been removed due to medical issues even though it was deemed safe at the time) & now have multiple auto immune diseases. If I can't go to the pub / holidays etc then I'll live with that. I wouldn't mix with people if I were ill prior to this, so I will maintain the same strategy. After all, the WHO stated back in December that asymptomatic transmission wasn't a thing!

No one wants to do any alternative research (from scientists & doctors who, until they dared question the narrative, were esteemed in their field) into potential side effects of an experimental 💉

It’s quite frightening how these people have been deemed dangerous quacks, openly laughed at, called conspiracy theorists.

We aren’t allowed to question anything and it’s worrying that Doctors and Scientists with decades of experience are turned against and deemed dangerous and discredited for questioning anything other than vaccine = wonderful.

But even for saying the above, I’ve been called all sorts of things.

@blue12345

Hospitalisation rates and deaths are not rising in relation to higher cases though, which means the most vulnerable are protected.

Lots of you have replied and said that the vaccinated can still get Covid. I understand that, but breakthrough infections are meant to be rare and also mild? This is supposedly the benefit of a vaccine that millions of people have taken. What then is the point if they're still afraid to mix with society? In case they get mild Covid?

I just am baffled how many of you think it's ok to just cut contact with a friend based on one viewpoint, having never given them other reasons to doubt me before.

You seem very naive op. Your friends are doubting you now because you've given them enough reason to.

Hospitalisation rates and deaths are going down due to the rest of us having the vaccine that you aren't having. I'm going to come clean and say that I do judge those who choose not to have the vaccine. My daughter has been told by a friend that she and her husband won't be having it and will "wait and see". She's not impressed with them, I can tell you.

It perfectly ok to distance yourself from friends and family for all sorts of reasons. I don't wish to see my sil because she posts" white lives matter" stuff. I make no apologies for that. I know it's not quite the same thing, but people have even more reasons to avoid you as it may impact their health or cause them to have to isolate. That's reason enough too.

@Arsebucket

No one wants to do any alternative research (from scientists & doctors who, until they dared question the narrative, were esteemed in their field) into potential side effects of an experimental 💉

It’s quite frightening how these people have been deemed dangerous quacks, openly laughed at, called conspiracy theorists.

We aren’t allowed to question anything and it’s worrying that Doctors and Scientists with decades of experience are turned against and deemed dangerous and discredited for questioning anything other than vaccine = wonderful.

But even for saying the above, I’ve been called all sorts of things.

I know. If it wasn't coming from sources who others would claim to be credible & (often the top of their field) in 'normal times', I'd understand. I also understand that the media has played a huge part in terrifying everyone & that people don't want to think we're not being told the whole truth. But we're definitely in the minority from what I've seen on here.

You’ve made the choice you’re comfortable with, they’ll do the same. Nothing sad about that 🤷‍♀️

@Arsebucket

No one wants to do any alternative research (from scientists & doctors who, until they dared question the narrative, were esteemed in their field) into potential side effects of an experimental 💉

It’s quite frightening how these people have been deemed dangerous quacks, openly laughed at, called conspiracy theorists.

We aren’t allowed to question anything and it’s worrying that Doctors and Scientists with decades of experience are turned against and deemed dangerous and discredited for questioning anything other than vaccine = wonderful.

But even for saying the above, I’ve been called all sorts of things.

@Arsebucket I've said it before and I'll say it again

The people making anti-vax claims - Mike Yeadon, Clanssen, Bryam Bridle, Harald Wallach, the HART group - aren't being discredited because they're "questioning the anything other the vaccine = wonderful", it's because they're spreading scientific misinformation which has no grounding in robust science

And no, if you look into it, many of them do not have a strong background in epidemiology or immunology research, and instead have waded into this for reasons I don't fully understand. Alongside the anti-vax claims they have a strong agenda of COVID denial and opposition to suppression measures, of which they spread more misinformation (e.g., COVID isn't dangerous, vaccines aren't needed, treatments like ivermectin work, masks aren't helpful and cause harm etc etc).

I am fascinated by what is driving this strange anti-science agenda, and am following with interest. Most anti-vax claims can be traced back to the same small group of people.

Yeadon is truly bizarre as he does have a relevant background- but seeing as he is claiming the government is doing it to control us and that everyone who's had it will be dead in two years - I think we can safely assume he is a nutjob.

4forkssake

Fair point but somewhat extreme example! With what I would say are often more moderate opinions I think it's important to see where others are coming from and respectfully agree to disagree.

Many people who are skeptical of the vaccine are not looking into conspiracy theories at all, just a healthy dose of questioning and some doubt. I respect their choices, even if I disagree.

@marmaladehound

4forkssake

Fair point but somewhat extreme example! With what I would say are often more moderate opinions I think it's important to see where others are coming from and respectfully agree to disagree.

Many people who are skeptical of the vaccine are not looking into conspiracy theories at all, just a healthy dose of questioning and some doubt. I respect their choices, even if I disagree.

Not sure which example is extreme (genuine question, not being arsey ). And I totally agree with you, that people need to agree to disagree, but the vast majority of people I come across definitely aren't of the same opinion, unless you've had the jab. So it's almost like 'I'll be respectful of your decision, providing it's the same as mine'.

As soon as someone dismisses people as conspiracy theorists I stop listening. It’s lazy and patronising. People can make choice about the or own health. I was really upset after dd got her vaccine and got ill, it was during winter lock down and I couldn’t visit her. She was in bed a week with flat mates looking after her. After eight years of worrying about her condition to see her deteriorate was terrifying. Her reason for having the vaccine was ‘so boris will let me go to the pub’. It was not a choice based on needing to be protected from covid as she’d already had it and it has been rough but not awful. She’s not had her second dose of Pfizer and I’m not sure if she will. The results from her bloods were the worst since she was diagnosed. They are better again now but I had two weeks of hell waiting to hear that. She’s still, I think, not 100%. She got over covid well.
Saying I’m a conspiracy theorist because seeing her reactions made me research the vaccines is crass.
In January I was offered the vaccine and I felt positive towards it but was pregnant and it was advised then not to have it if you were pregnant, I fully intended to have it once the baby was bots. I’m so thankful I didn’t as the clots stuff wasn’t coming out then. Now I feel like I’m making an informed choice, when if I’d taken it in January it wouldn’t have been, as the side effects were not been seen as it was too early in the process of roll out.
I do think there will be issues over winter and I’m happy to be cautious and happy for people not to see me. As I’ve said I won’t risk my health for fripperies such as holidays and socialising.

For those of you who won’t have the vaccine, I have one question. It’s been asked before on this thread, but as far as I can see it hasn’t been answered, by op or anyone else:

What would you prefer to do instead to get us out of this?

As far as I can see, it’s either never ending lockdowns or restrictions or “let it rip” herd immunity.

There are obviously problems with both of these options, and both would definitely cause disruption to health services, especially non-covid related ones.

People say they just want to rely on their own immune system to do the job instead of the vaccine, as they think they wouldn’t become poorly with covid, but completely miss the bigger picture that if we all did this, the only options would be those above....

What would you prefer to do instead to get us out of this?

As far as I can see, it’s either never ending lockdowns or restrictions or “let it rip” herd immunity.

I’ve been asking this too. Tumbleweed.

Watermelon, I think once the elderly and vulnerable have been vaccinated that we should have opened up in a step by step approach. The goalposts moved constantly, it was over 70s and vulnerable, then over 50s and now anyone over 18. Most people have mild or no symptoms. The whole point of lockdowns was to not overwhelm the NHS not to get to zero covid - that was never an option. So whilst I don't want to let it rip, I do think that herd immunity through natural immunity is the best option for many and vaccines for those that are vulnerable.

I do think that herd immunity through natural immunity is the best option for many

This is let it rip though.

Many would die that way. I don’t get why it’s preferable to getting a vaccine.

Why would many people die? The recovery rate for covid is extremely high, yes some healthy people will die, as with any illness, but if all vulnerable people get vaccinated then this will be limited. I'm not adverse to others getting vaccinated if they want to but most peoples immunity have been doing its job.

It’s more about hospital capacity though

If you breach it you need restrictions

So only vaccinating vulnerable could be difficult with above