Feeling so low about this new world of vaccines

[blue12345]

Just wondering if anyone else is in the same boat as me? For many reasons, I've decided not to get the Covid vaccine. I' have all my vaccines and all my kids are vaccinated. I state this to show I'm not an anti-vaxxer, although I increasingly feel like one.

I'm feeling very isolated from my friends and family as a result of this. Everyone I meet asks me am I booked in yet, am I double-vaccinated. I don't bother getting into conversations about it , but it still causes me anxiety and has led to friction. A very close friend has asked me a few times have I got an appointment for my vaccine yet and I've tried to brush her off, as I think she will be unlikely to want to spend time around me after she finds out I'm not getting it. I've also found that lots of friends have cut back on their contact with me.

I am very comfortable with my decision, but I'm just so sad that we now live in a world where the segregation of vaccinated and unvaccinated people is allowed, in both interpersonal relations and also looking more and more likely that services like restaurants and travel will be similarly restricted.

[quote FindYourPorpoise]@Mischance

Ending a friendship because you disagree on something you feel strongly about is completely normal. [/quote]
Totally disagree!

@GirlAloud

I'm actually getting anxious reading all the comments. It makes me so upset to think that people think of me like this.

Tough.

Actions have consequences. Your refusal to be vaccinated puts others at risk, therefore people think less of you and don’t want to be around you.

Yep.

Your friends might not be high risk but they might - as a good example - prioritise to choose seeing their elderly parents over you, a friend who has chosen not to be vaccinated. On the balance of risk they'd probably be right to do so.

Shame for you, but if you have strong reasons for not getting it then that's the cost. Again, it's a balance - and you've made your decision with its costs

@marmaladehound

I think the whole vaccine debate is just toxic and this was even before Covid.

I have a very close friend is is not pro vaccine but she not overly outspoken about it. I am pro vaccine. We have had some great chats around the topic as I am genuinely interested in her reasoning. She is not a conspiracy theorist, but she has some very valid opinions.

I wish there was more respect between the 2 different viewpoints but then there is such a lack of respect and a massive divide between so many now regarding so many things... brexit springs to mind!! It would be a whole lot better if people would actually listen to each other, even if you don't agree!

I can't possibly "respect" those who flout established science & deliberately endanger others.

@CrunchyCarrot

There is a way that vaccine refusers can contribute to population-level immunity, and that’s to get infected. Once they recover, they would then have a good level of immunity - not as good as vaccinated people and not as long lasting either, but helpful nevertheless.

Immunity from natural infection isn't inferior to vaccine-induced immunity, which is what you appear to be suggesting. This is just wrong. Immunity will last just as long and immunity via natural infection is 'broader' as one's body makes antibodies to various parts of the whole virus, not just the spike protein. Both vaccination and natural infection are different routes to immunity, but they are equally good.

Do you have any evidence to back that up?

hospitalisations continue and pressure on the health service remains.

But not to the same extent. Tbh, the pressure on the health service atm is more to do with too many people turning up to A&E because they can’t get GP appointments, staff shortages because of needing to isolate and annual leave and a major backlog from the last year on top of already strained services. I can think of better ways the government could have spent money this year without lining their friends pockets for crappy t&t systems and vaccine passports.

People seem to forget that infection also confers immunity. The last ons survey showed that ~90% of over 16s have immunity from either vaccination or infection already. I would say that a significant proportion of under 16s also have immunity. All those pressure on younger, healthy people to be vaccinated ‘for the greater good’ could be unnecessary.

@bumbleymummy This is what I don’t understand. I had covid back in March 2020, not too ill, but ill for months afterwards, mcas type symptoms, strange reactions that weren’t there before. My body is only just naturally returning to a better state (I hope!) I’m worried what a double jab will do to a body that’s already been through it all fit so long

[quote FindYourPorpoise]@Mischance

Ending a friendship because you disagree on something you feel strongly about is completely normal. [/quote]
Ending a friendship because someone wont have a medical procedure is absolutely not normal.

@XenoBitch

I said that in response to this comment:

I just am baffled how many of you think it's ok to just cut contact with a friend based on one viewpoint

People are entitled to end a friendship at any point they wish to. You may disagree but some views or behaviours can reveal underlying attitudes or values which someone may find hard to accept or respect.

[quote FindYourPorpoise]@XenoBitch

I said that in response to this comment:

I just am baffled how many of you think it's ok to just cut contact with a friend based on one viewpoint

People are entitled to end a friendship at any point they wish to. You may disagree but some views or behaviours can reveal underlying attitudes or values which someone may find hard to accept or respect. [/quote]
Yeah, it has happened to me and it is devastating to find out a friend thought so little of me that they would cut me off because I wont get the vaccine (in my case, it is severe needle phobia and this friend knows about it and where it stems from). I get called "selfish cunt" etc before I had to block him.
Am fed up with people who have had the vaccine being held up as morally superior when many are treating their friends like mine did.

@XenoBitch

I'm sorry that happened to you.

I don't think there is any sense of moral superiority among vaccinated people, just a strong mix of anxiety, fear and weariness with the situation.

I just hope you realise that by making your grand gesture of not having the vaccine and starting a huge row about it on MN you are not only risking your life but also restricting it because you will not be allowed to travel anywhere or do anything...

@Snugglybuggly

I just hope you realise that by making your grand gesture of not having the vaccine and starting a huge row about it on MN you are not only risking your life but also restricting it because you will not be allowed to travel anywhere or do anything...

Travel may be an issue but we have no control over what other countries insist on for entry. But, "anything"? Like what? Do you know something we don't?

According to the OP if you are unlucky enough to be old, or immunocompromised, or have a disability that puts you in the shielding category, your life and quality of life is worth less

I agree and have felt this viewpoint all along. I have found it in the authorities and individuals. My husband is CEV and there have been so many occasions and dozens of posts on here that have subtly dismissed his life as expendable, and that his life is worth less than others., In actual fact in a non Covid world my husband is perfectly healthy, works and lives normally, but his particular condition means he is unlikely to survive Covid. Yet because he was in the CEV category he is assumed by others to be at risk of death anyway, and so if he loses his life it would be expected, and as you say his life is worth less.

To be honest those whose views mirror the OP's are terrifying me. Because with no shielding to protect him, we have no choice but to enter society again and would never know if the person next to him on the train or the supermarket queue has refused the vaccine, meaning the risk to him is heightened. I can only hope that anybody we know and meet would be honest enough to say they have refused the vaccine. I would totally accept their right not to be vaccinated, and would never attempt to change their minds, but I or members of my household would no longer see or socialise with them face to face because I consider the risk of being with someone who has refused the vaccine too high. I hope they would respect my opinion also.

The thought that someone would lie about having had the vaccine in order to avoid any unpleasantness with others is a far greater risk to anybody CEV or vulnerable, and I would consider that to be beyond selfish, cruel even. I could never continue a relationship with anyone who lied about it, no matter who they are.

People behaving like they’re more at risk now than they were pre-vaccine. Completely illogical

My own (completely illogical) view is that it FEELS more at risk for my CEV husband, even though stastically it isn't. Previously he could shield and it felt safe, but now that is no longer an option we have to venture out into the world of work, as the children have to go to school where they are numerous positive cases each day. So it does feel as if he is more at risk especially due to the strangers he may come into contact with who may have refused the vaccine. And of course like everyone the vaccine refusers will no longer have to socially distance or wear a mask either. So I personally have never felt quite so terrified for my husband (hence still awake at 5am) and so would love people like the OP to change their minds, though of course that would be very selfish of me to think that way. So although my feelings may seem very illogical to others, they are very real to me and this part of the pandemic has been the most difficult part for me.

@CrunchyCarrot

There is a way that vaccine refusers can contribute to population-level immunity, and that’s to get infected. Once they recover, they would then have a good level of immunity - not as good as vaccinated people and not as long lasting either, but helpful nevertheless.

Immunity from natural infection isn't inferior to vaccine-induced immunity, which is what you appear to be suggesting. This is just wrong. Immunity will last just as long and immunity via natural infection is 'broader' as one's body makes antibodies to various parts of the whole virus, not just the spike protein. Both vaccination and natural infection are different routes to immunity, but they are equally good.

Fair enough - although that is the line which officialdom has given us, with the recommendation to get vaccinated even if you’ve had Covid and the importance of getting the second dose.

With Delta, we’re seeing a big difference in protection from two as opposed to one dose. I wonder what the means for protection from infection without subsequent vaccination? Speculation, of course, as I’m not aware of any data.

Point remains that people who don’t get vaccinated are likely to get infected sooner or later. They will then be contributing to population immunity.

However, they are taking the risk that they might be among the small minority who will have a bad outcome AND they do present a risk to those who are CV and can’t be vaccinated or whose vaccination proves ineffective. There is really no getting away from that - if you are unvaccinated (and have not been previously infected) you are more likely to be able to pass the infection on than if you were vaccinated.

To not respect those with a different opinion is just plain bigoted.

The friend I referred to in previous post is not pro vaccine however she got her first Covid jab last week. It took her a while to do it and she was not comfortable doing it but felt it was the morally right thing to to.

Not all people who question vaccines are as vile as a whole load of pro vaccine people think!

I have a very close friend is is not pro vaccine but she not overly outspoken about it. I am pro vaccine. We have had some great chats around the topic as I am genuinely interested in her reasoning. She is not a conspiracy theorist, but she has some very valid opinions.

I wish there was more respect between the 2 different viewpoints but then there is such a lack of respect and a massive divide between so many now regarding so many things... brexit springs to mind!! It would be a whole lot better if people would actually listen to each other, even if you don't agree!

A few years ago I was part of a research project which was looking at how anti-vaxx information is presented on the internet and why so many people get taken in by it. I was only on the periphery but it meant I read a lot of anti vaxx websites, fb groups etc. Quite frankly their views are dangerous and I could not be friends with someone who supports or holds those views.

I have a lot of sympathy for those with phobias and health anxiety and would be supportive in those cases.

But pseudo science, conspiracy theories or making a decision as to whose life you think is worth more? .....nah, I think I'd struggle to remain friends as the respect would be gone.

@Bovrilly

I would be pretty horrified if a friend of mine told me that they would happily get the vaccine if healthy young people were at risk, but were not prepared to do it for the elderly and CEV. I don't think there would be any way back from that. Sometimes people's world view is so far removed from your own that there's nothing there on which to build a friendship.

Yes. This.

In relation to being more at risk now than pre vaccines...people seem to have forgotten that the Delta variant is 50-60% more transmissible than the previous variant. Added to that, the last time we had this many cases was end of Jan when we were in full blown lockdown, hospitality not open, don't travel if not needed etc. So we ARE in more danger now than we were previously! There's is more risk of you coming into contact with someone who has come into contact with covid as we are all mixing more and it is out there spreading. God forbid how much more this will go up by 19 July...

You are not alone. I don't want to take the vaccine either. Not yet. But the peer pressure and judgement would be a challenge.

@marmaladehound

To not respect those with a different opinion is just plain bigoted.

The friend I referred to in previous post is not pro vaccine however she got her first Covid jab last week. It took her a while to do it and she was not comfortable doing it but felt it was the morally right thing to to.

Not all people who question vaccines are as vile as a whole load of pro vaccine people think!

Not all people who question vaccines are vile - of course not. Questioning and coming to an informed decision, particularly in regard to medical choices is healthy.

But none of us have to respect all people with different opinions to ours…I would never respect a nazi for example. I couldn’t get over the opinion that Jewish, disabled people, LGBT and gypsies lives were worth less than others.

@marmaladehound

To not respect those with a different opinion is just plain bigoted.

The friend I referred to in previous post is not pro vaccine however she got her first Covid jab last week. It took her a while to do it and she was not comfortable doing it but felt it was the morally right thing to to.

Not all people who question vaccines are as vile as a whole load of pro vaccine people think!

Same for me. I questioned it and still do but will take my second dose.

Despite its messed my cycle up and I'm TTC which is the most worrying aspect of it for me.

I spoke to a friend about it and she had no sympathy whatsoever and I really felt like snapping 'well yeh it's fine for you you've had your kid!'

I respect anyone who has a different opinion to me and can tell me why without giving me misleading data about why they're right.
My line is drawn at the utter selfishness and, frankly, crackpot lack of intelligence with the anti-vax community. In all these years, (21 on MN and counting) this argument has come up more times than many others, and I've yet to see anyone (who hasn't been told by their doctor not to have a vaccine) come up with a reason that isn't a) inherently selfish b) arrived at by foraging in the worst, most obviously fake, data posted on the web by those with a horse in the race.
Do I want to associate with people like that? Nope. Do I get to decide? Yep.