Feeling so low about this new world of vaccines

[blue12345]

Just wondering if anyone else is in the same boat as me? For many reasons, I've decided not to get the Covid vaccine. I' have all my vaccines and all my kids are vaccinated. I state this to show I'm not an anti-vaxxer, although I increasingly feel like one.

I'm feeling very isolated from my friends and family as a result of this. Everyone I meet asks me am I booked in yet, am I double-vaccinated. I don't bother getting into conversations about it , but it still causes me anxiety and has led to friction. A very close friend has asked me a few times have I got an appointment for my vaccine yet and I've tried to brush her off, as I think she will be unlikely to want to spend time around me after she finds out I'm not getting it. I've also found that lots of friends have cut back on their contact with me.

I am very comfortable with my decision, but I'm just so sad that we now live in a world where the segregation of vaccinated and unvaccinated people is allowed, in both interpersonal relations and also looking more and more likely that services like restaurants and travel will be similarly restricted.

[quote Madhairday]@bumbleymummy
Well some are COVID and some are other illnesses that weren’t able to be diagnosed/treated on time due to restrictions/fear of attending doctor surgeries etc, a few thousand are from cancer that wasn’t diagnosed/treated in a timely manner (we’ll see more of that sadly).

Gosh, well just imagine how many more of those there would have been if we hadn't locked down and simply let the virus rip at the time. Or are you of the baffling thinking that allowing the virus to rip would have meant more people would have had their cancer diagnosed/treated, more people able to access GP etc? It just makes no sense that you use this as an argument against restrictions and yet I've seen this time and again.

Besides that, there have been 150,000 covid deaths according to death certificates. That's not just with covid. It's death with covid as a main/contributory cause.[/quote]
I’m not using it as an argument against restrictions I just answered the question about what caused the excess deaths. Do you think they were all COVID?

We do all have choice about whether or not we get vaccinated but it's not the case that our choices only affect ourselves.

We need as many people as people to get vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. People who can get the vaccinated but choose not to have a negative impact on their community. It's their choice but others can also choose to not be ok with that.

It's not just the Covid vaccine. I stopped speaking to someone who refused all vaccines for her baby and then sent him to nursery and complained when they gently discussed vaccines with parents as they had a severely immunocompromised child in their care. She thought they were attacking her, I thought she was being ignorant, selfish and reckless with the life of her own child and that of others.

Well some are COVID and some are other illnesses that weren’t able to be diagnosed/treated on time due to restrictions/fear of attending doctor surgeries etc, a few thousand are from cancer that wasn’t diagnosed/treated in a timely manner (we’ll see more of that sadly).

Just a couple of points.

These figures are just England and Wales, so need to add on a few thousand excess deaths for Scotland and Northern Ireland.

At the start of the pandemic there was very little testing - only those in hospital were tested - so there will certainly be people who died of Covid without having it on their death certificate.

Certain causes of death went down during the pandemic, like road traffic fatalities, which fell dramatically. Those deaths have been replaced, as well as excess deaths added.

Here you can see the ONS analysis of excess deaths for 2020. Of course deaths from cancer may go up in the future as a result of the pandemic, but of the 76,000 excess deaths in England and Wales in 2020, Covid was responsible for 97% of them, according to the ONS. Deaths from cancer remained stable.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/deathsathomeincreasedbyathirdin2020whiledeathsinhospitalsfellexceptforcovid19/2021-05-07

www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(20)30388-0/fulltext

“ For these four tumour types(breast, crc, oesophageal and lung) these data correspond with 3291–3621 additional deaths across the scenarios within 5 years. The total additional YLLs across these cancers is estimated to be 59 204–63 229 years.”

@roguetomato

"I believe that we could have helped the vulnerable of the world by vaccinating our vulnerable first and then sharing our vaccines with poorer countries before vaccinating the younger and healthy in our country."

Your logic doesn't even make sense. So you are happy for vulnerable people to take something that you think it's dangerous to healthy person like you?
Your view is so detached from reality of others, no wonder some people wants to distance from you.

It's called risk vs benefit. The risk of covid is higher to a vulnerable person than a young healthy person. Therefore it would be better to let vulnerable people in other countries have it over healthy young people on which the risk of the vaccine is higher than the risk of getting covid

I've always found the anti-vaxx stance to be very selfish because you aren't willing to have the vaccine but you're relying on others to have had it to offer you some protection.*

I've never relied on anyone else to have the jab, that's their decision if they want to have it.

it will find new hosts if the original hosts can't spread it as easily
Is it possible lockdowns could have caused this too. Being as how there was less people around

@bumbleymummy

www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(20)30388-0/fulltext

“ For these four tumour types(breast, crc, oesophageal and lung) these data correspond with 3291–3621 additional deaths across the scenarios within 5 years. The total additional YLLs across these cancers is estimated to be 59 204–63 229 years.”

Not sure what you mean by this - are you trying to refute data, actual deaths that did or didn't occur in 2020, with modelling of the next five years from a year ago? Cancer deaths could definitely increase, as I said, but this isn't evidence that they have or will.

In order for us to break the link between cases and hospitalisations and deaths we needed a large population to be vaccinated. Breaking that link has meant that even though cases are rising , on the whole, hospital admissions and deaths aren't. Certainly not to the extent the would with an unvaccinated population. This means the NHS is being overwhelmed by covid cases and it means we can start to open up the economy further.

So, in my opinion, those choosing not to vaccinate are relying on others to do it. Otherwise we'd be in much worse situation.

Means the nhs isn't overwhelmed

You are sad because of this new world of vaccines, because some people have reacted negatively to your choice.

I am bloody ecstatic with this new world of vaccines, which have the power to reduce the burden of Covid to a level that we can live with…. as long as the vast majority of people get vaccinated. Every person who refuses to get vaccinated (as opposed to be being medically advised not to) is slowing us down from reaching that point.

Without vaccines we would lurch from lockdown to new wave to lockdown, the waiting lists for elective treatments would grow and grow, education would be disrupted for years, the economy would buckle…. Yes, I think that vaccines are bloody fantastic, thank God for them and the scientists who developed them and the nurses and doctors who administer them.

There is a way that vaccine refusers can contribute to population-level immunity, and that’s to get infected. Once they recover, they would then have a good level of immunity - not as good as vaccinated people and not as long lasting either, but helpful nevertheless.

That’s IF they recover, of course.

Not trying to refute anything @Bovrilly

It just shows predictions for the impact of deaths in those 4 cancer types over the next few years. An indication of ongoing knock on effects.

OP I havent RTFT purely because I got through the first couple of pages and couldn't stomach anymore. MN is utterly mental when it comes to vaccines, I haven't had the vaccine yet and if my friends chose not to socialise with me, I'd be really upset but I won't be bullied into doing something I don't want. We will look back in a few years, how polarised debates are now and cringe at how we treated people.

In order for us to break the link between cases and hospitalisations and deaths we needed a large population to be vaccinated.

We needed a large proportion of the people most likely to end up in hospital to be vaccinated.

not as good as vaccinated people and not as long lasting either, but helpful nevertheless.

You don’t know that yet. At the moment we have more info about immunity after infection - recent studies showing 9+ months and a couple of studies showing antibodies after a year (small sample sizes atm though).,

There is a way that vaccine refusers can contribute to population-level immunity, and that’s to get infected. Once they recover, they would then have a good level of immunity - not as good as vaccinated people and not as long lasting either, but helpful nevertheless.

Immunity from natural infection isn't inferior to vaccine-induced immunity, which is what you appear to be suggesting. This is just wrong. Immunity will last just as long and immunity via natural infection is 'broader' as one's body makes antibodies to various parts of the whole virus, not just the spike protein. Both vaccination and natural infection are different routes to immunity, but they are equally good.

I just am baffled how many of you think it's ok to just cut contact with a friend based on one viewpoint

It is not just a viewpoint; it is a danger to them.

It is people like you who will slow down our recovery from the pandemic.

I am sure you know that by now, as so many people on here have tried to explain that to you. Presumably you are either incapable of grasping this or simply do not care. If the latter, then no wonder your friends have become wary of you.

@Mischance

Ending a friendship because you disagree on something you feel strongly about is completely normal.

We needed a large proportion of the people most likely to end up in hospital to be vaccinated.

I’m not sure that is actually the case. Vaccine efficacy is good but not perfect. Vaccinated vulnerable people will continue to die.

@TheKeatingFive

We needed a large proportion of the people most likely to end up in hospital to be vaccinated.

I’m not sure that is actually the case. Vaccine efficacy is good but not perfect. Vaccinated vulnerable people will continue to die.

Yes, some will. But as far as reducing strain on hospitals goes, we needed to vaccinate the people who were most likely to end up there. That’s why the JCVI prioritised those top 9 groups - they made up ~99.% of deaths and, iirc over 85% of hospitalisations.

That’s why the JCVI prioritised those top 9 groups - they made up ~99.% of deaths and, iirc over 85% of hospitalisations.

The vaccines won’t necessarily be very efficacious for all of them, so they can all be vaccinated and yet hospitalisations continue and pressure on the health service remains.

It’s not really clear yet what is ‘enough’. Delta has moved the goalposts in terms of the percentage of the population that needs vaxxed for herd immunity. It’s going up and up. Every single person getting a jab makes everyone a tiny bit more protected.

[quote FindYourPorpoise]@Mischance

Ending a friendship because you disagree on something you feel strongly about is completely normal. [/quote]
Agree.

Vaccination and Trump are dealbreakers for me. Friends (in some cases of 35 years) who didn't vote for Biden and get the jab are history to me; zero regrets.

@MrsLCSofLichfield

You are comfortable with your decision. It's not reasonable to expect everyone else to be, it affects them too. Vaccinated people are still getting sick, albeit generally not severely. You are significantly more likely to catch and spread covid if you are not vaccinated, so you are still a risk to other people. The more COVID spreads, the greater chance of a vaccine-defeating variant which will kill and disable more people and shut the economy down again. You know all this, right?

You have your (unstated) reasons, it's your call.

Well said!

I think the whole vaccine debate is just toxic and this was even before Covid.

I have a very close friend is is not pro vaccine but she not overly outspoken about it. I am pro vaccine. We have had some great chats around the topic as I am genuinely interested in her reasoning. She is not a conspiracy theorist, but she has some very valid opinions.

I wish there was more respect between the 2 different viewpoints but then there is such a lack of respect and a massive divide between so many now regarding so many things... brexit springs to mind!! It would be a whole lot better if people would actually listen to each other, even if you don't agree!

@BarbarianMum

Just accept it. Your friends have seen a side of you they didnt know before and they (apparently) dont like it much. You may not have changed but now they know you a little better. Bit weird to criticise them for acting in their best interests when that's exactly what you are doing.

Thank you for expressing this so well.

@TheKeatingFive

We needed a large proportion of the people most likely to end up in hospital to be vaccinated.

I’m not sure that is actually the case. Vaccine efficacy is good but not perfect. Vaccinated vulnerable people will continue to die.

Plus vaccination is less effective in the elderly.