Feeling so low about this new world of vaccines

[blue12345]

Just wondering if anyone else is in the same boat as me? For many reasons, I've decided not to get the Covid vaccine. I' have all my vaccines and all my kids are vaccinated. I state this to show I'm not an anti-vaxxer, although I increasingly feel like one.

I'm feeling very isolated from my friends and family as a result of this. Everyone I meet asks me am I booked in yet, am I double-vaccinated. I don't bother getting into conversations about it , but it still causes me anxiety and has led to friction. A very close friend has asked me a few times have I got an appointment for my vaccine yet and I've tried to brush her off, as I think she will be unlikely to want to spend time around me after she finds out I'm not getting it. I've also found that lots of friends have cut back on their contact with me.

I am very comfortable with my decision, but I'm just so sad that we now live in a world where the segregation of vaccinated and unvaccinated people is allowed, in both interpersonal relations and also looking more and more likely that services like restaurants and travel will be similarly restricted.

@QueenCoconut

I’ve recently been invited to a party and the invitation stated that all adults attending the event have confirmed to be double vaccinated. A married couple from our social circle have been excluded because they are not vaccinated (by choice). They are our close friends so it feels a bit uncomfortable. It’s the first example of this I’ve seen but I think it might become more common now.

I personally didn’t want to have the vaccine and really didn’t like the idea of injecting my body with something that hasn’t gone through many years of tests. However I have had it because it was the right thing to do.
Just imagine if we all decided not to have it because it’s our ‘personal’ choice - thousands would still be dying of COVID now. Millions of people in this country have gone ahead with the vaccination despite not feeling happy about it.

That’s awful. I think I would boycott something like that out of principle.

Unless all the vulnerable people who were most likely to end up in hospital refused it, then no, there wouldn’t still be thousands of deaths.

@Bovrilly

I think you might be confusing me the poster you replied to originally though.

Yes sorry, I should be asking @CrouchEndTiger12 if they're suggesting that not all the Covid deaths were actually Covid deaths. And if so, what do they think caused all the excess deaths.

No problem :)

I did give you a few examples of other excess deaths we’ve had this year.

@Bovrilly

*No no no, it’s nothing to do with them being less worthy. That’s your spin on it. That’s not what I said at all. * Well you did say that the public shouldn't be expected to put the health of strangers above their own needs. But that if younger people were dying everyone would lock themselves away without being told. Which does suggest that you think the life of a young stranger is worth more than that of an old stranger.

What about vulnerable people who are young? Should we go out of our way to protect them or let them take their chances?

The majority of people have had their lives turned upside down and are suffering mental health affects and I include children in this.

Not sure what this has to do with vaccination, other than if you worry about the effects of lockdown, maybe vaccination is the way to go?

Caring about everyone is great but there comes a point the public can’t be expected to put the health of strangers above their own needs and metal health.

If you can't bring yourself to care about other people, why not only think about yourself and get vaccinated because the risk of harm from Covid is greater than the risk of harm from the vaccine?

I was referring to what the OP said about getting the vaccine if it were kids that were affected significantly.

A child dying is tragic. An 82 year old dying is not tragic. It’s sad, but not tragic. Why is it not tragic? Because the average life expectancy is 82. So they’ve had a nice long life. No shorter than the average and a lot more than than some.

If you genuinely can’t grasp the concept of the loss of a child’s life being worse, than the loss of an adults life then that’s shocking. The loss is all those years they’ll never get to live!! Imo nothing at all is mrs tragic than a young life cut short. Nothing.

You’ll struggle to find anyone that disagrees with this but crack on.

To add - I have been vaccinated!!!!

They could be though, if a more deadly variant evolves.

If if if. We could all die from a deadly flu strain some year if a more deadly variant evolves but we don’t try to vaccinate the entire population every year to prevent that. It’s also not particularly logical when there are literally millions of unvaccinated people (children) in the U.K. and millions more worldwide so plenty of opportunity for new strains to evolve regardless of whether or not 40 yr old Barbara down the street gets vaccinated.

I had it to help protect the vulnerable!!

You’ll struggle to find anyone that disagrees with this but crack on.

It's not about which is more tragic. It's about saying that making a personal sacrifice, whether that's getting a vaccine you don't really want or complying with a lockdown, would be worth doing if it might protect young people. People wouldn't even need to be asked! But it's an unreasonable request when the people at risk are old. Can't get my head around the idea that there's a point on the tragedy meter where someone's death would not be tragic enough to warrant their fellow members of society making a sacrifice to protect them.

I don't ask my friends if they're vaccinated, for that very reason @blue12345. All of mine have volunteered the fact they have had the vaccination with some pride to be honest.

I'm not sure if I would cut someone out who wasn't vaccinated but I'd probably think 'well, if everyone felt like you we'd never get that % immunity we need to stop variants etc' and that would probably colour my judgement of them I suppose. I'm glad I've not been put in the position yet to be frank.

I'll give you the reasons why I had mine (despite the possibility of clots - which they tell at the vaccination centre by the way so nothing is hidden).

1. I work in a school so my chances of getting Covid from an asymptomatic student is possible. Ours have masked up but some of our SEN kids don't/can't and when I work with them I have to take my chance. Like many others in all sorts of work.

2. DS has a heart condition but is still in school - his consultant says he has no more chance of being seriously ill with Covid and his particular condition than the 'average' teenager. But if a vaccination was there for him we would allow him to have it if he wanted it. His consultant is of the view that vaccinations have to be up to date for him and we should always be vaccinated as a secondary line of defence for him if he can't.

3. Some of DS's friends in school aren't so lucky. Two friends are type 1 diabetic. One is so vulnerable with diabetes that she has to work in a separate room and has her lunch in the medical area. She was suffering, mentally, by being at home so the school made arrangements for part time school attendance and the arrangement above. We have no idea when she'll be able to join her classmates again whilst this is going on, but she feels part of the school and her mental health has improved. It's the best we can get for her at the moment until she can have a vaccination and start her life up again.

I didn't get vaccinated in some martyred sort of 'jab me in order to save DS's poor friend' though. My (and DH's) reason was completely selfish. We got vaccinated because, as we're over 50 years old, if I or DH get seriously ill then DS is alone. That's it. If we go to hospital or die he has his life disrupted.

And that is not going to happen if I can do one thing to stop it. So I did the one thing. As did DH. We had our vaccination. Now it may work, it may hold back some symptoms enough to stop us being hospitalised or worse. We may be unlucky. Who knows. But I can't do more. I wasn't prepared to do less. I've had the vaccination and there is nothing else I can now do.

I think that every one of us has to be able to live with our decisions. In all aspects of life.

One final thing. Whilst this does/did cause more deaths amongst the over 80s, there are younger people (children, like DS and DS's friends) who cannot have a vaccination however desperately they want it. So looking at statistics and saying 'it would be worth the greater good if it were affecting kids but it isn't' is absolutely untrue. Plus, if I were 82 years old I'd hope I'd live until I was 83 (or more). No one stops dreaming of what they want to do or see just because they're old. I think we owe it to everyone to try to save as many of us as possible.

@Bovrilly

You’ll struggle to find anyone that disagrees with this but crack on.

It's not about which is more tragic. It's about saying that making a personal sacrifice, whether that's getting a vaccine you don't really want or complying with a lockdown, would be worth doing if it might protect young people. People wouldn't even need to be asked! But it's an unreasonable request when the people at risk are old. Can't get my head around the idea that there's a point on the tragedy meter where someone's death would not be tragic enough to warrant their fellow members of society making a sacrifice to protect them.

I’ve had my vaccine. I didn’t want to get it, but I did, because I thought if it stops the spread then all the better, we’ll all benefit.

Being locked down for months upon months and isolated, kids off school for months, people losing jobs, livelihood, to name but a few things…. Has taken its toll on people.

Some people appear to be happy with the restrictions, so it’s easy for those people o say, it’s fine just do it bla bla bla. Others are going mad and are struggling with MH and at the end of their tether.

The mental health impact of all of this is a huge concern and the mental health crisis due to covid shouldn’t be swept under the carpet. There’s been a lot of sacrifices made by the majority of people in this country, but there is a limit of what people will do and should be expected to do.

I’m not talking about the vaccine, again I’ve had mine, against my wishes, but nevertheless I did it. I’m talking in general terms.

Now the vast majority of adults have been vaccinated, it’s not reasonable to keep restrictions in place. We were told this was our way out of the covid situation, so if they dont get rid of the restrictions there will likely be uproar.

People simply won’t comply anymore- because their personal needs and the needs of their families are their priority. It’s instinct you protect your loved ones and place their needs above that of a stranger.

I do feel for you as I know they are new and not without some relatively rare but serious side effects and I don’t feel anyone should be forced to take a vaccination. Hopefully your friends are able to understand your take on this but I can understand them choosing not to meet socially while cases are so high. Even if they are double vaccinated they are still able to pick up covid and as vaccinations don’t offer everyone full protection it’s hard to know how it’ll effect even a double vaccinated person, there is also the issue of long covid too. Personally I am very cautious and feel more comfortable spending time with people who are vaccinated than those who aren’t as at present due to high community transmission the risk of you both having covid and potentially passing it on is much higher than a vaccinated individual. There is also the issue of self isolation if in contact with a positive case. I’m sure this will change as rates drop and I wouldn’t take it as a reflection of you as an individual but rather that your friends are risk assessing their interactions and you are currently higher risk than a vaccinated person.

But they were willing to meet up with her before when no vaccines were available and cases were higher. How is she more of a risk to them now?

It's probably not about a health risk. It wouldn't be for me. It would be the simple fact I would no longer want to associate with people who were so selfish.

It's interesting about the age thing. I have no doubt that if the virus mainly affected younger people those now saying they wouldn't would be pushing their way to the front. Says a lot about how the elderly are considered in our society.

And nobody wants to even think about young CEV people...

It's a bit like finding out people you thought you knew well voted opposite to you on Brexit. Or took a voting decision you found surprising in the Trump election. It makes you see them in a different light somehow.

I would be pretty horrified if a friend of mine told me that they would happily get the vaccine if healthy young people were at risk, but were not prepared to do it for the elderly and CEV. I don't think there would be any way back from that. Sometimes people's world view is so far removed from your own that there's nothing there on which to build a friendship.

I agree that it would make me see people in a different light. Nobody that I’ve spoken to who is anti-vax has been able to give a thorough, rational explanation and to be honest, it makes me judge them for having a lack of critical thinking ability. In the same way I’ve distanced myself from a friend who started developing some extreme political views, I would be put off socialising with anti-vaxers. I dislike the sentiment that some people are too special and couldn’t possibly put something they’re not sure about in their body. Shows a complete lack of understanding about the vaccine testing and trial process, and also hypocrisy given that often those same people will happily take illicit drugs of unknown origin, eat heavily processed junk food etc.

[quote blue12345]@TheDevils No, the point about kids and young adults is my perspective on it.

I would definitely get vaccinated if they were dying.

Why do you think this consultant is palliative care is asking for people to think about how elderly and infirm the vast, vast majority of Covid deaths are? I imagine she has plenty of knowledge in this field. [/quote]
Don't worry, give it time and all the other people who have decided it's not worth getting a vaccine and the virus can get on with doing what viruses do and self select to become a variant more fatal to children instead - just as other variants have become more infectious in the unvaccinated reservoir of children over the last year.

@NeverDropYourMoonCup - and that's the point isn't it? If this virus wants to live (which is what all living things want to do), it will find new hosts if the original hosts can't spread it as easily. And that will be the kids as they have no vaccination to turn to.

I’m not afraid of catching Covid itself - I think we all had it before the first lockdown anyway and it was worse than a cold, not quite as bad as flu. Of course we didn’t know what it was at the time, but we certainly had all the symptoms - I thought I was going to break my ribs coughing at one point.

I am afraid of having to self isolate. Being stuck in the house for more than a day or two really does a number on my mental health. The thought makes me feel a bit sick and shaky, to be honest. I would find it so hard. It’s just a terrible thought - for me, personally. My mental health would be shot.

So for that reason, I think I’d be avoiding you at least until August. And I’d have to wonder if we were actually all that compatible as friends, tbh.

[quote LondonJax]@NeverDropYourMoonCup - and that's the point isn't it? If this virus wants to live (which is what all living things want to do), it will find new hosts if the original hosts can't spread it as easily. And that will be the kids as they have no vaccination to turn to.[/quote]
If people aren't smart enough to work out that deciding to increase the size of the reservoir for infection gives a higher statistical opportunity for it to become a widespread killer of babies and children, yes.

Can I offer another view that doesn't appear to have been covered?

My parents are in their late eighties, CEV and anti vax.

My mum in particular is oblivious to exactly how vulnerable she is. They don't seem particularly bothered by the risk.

I, on the other hand, am terrified. What terrifies me is if we and the children visit, and we pass it on to them. if we do and it kills one of them, we have to live with that knowledge for the rest of our lives.

Maybe your friends are reluctant to see you because they don't want to infect you op.

It's probably not about a health risk. It wouldn't be for me. It would be the simple fact I would no longer want to associate with people who were so selfish.

I think that’s really mean. Someone may be an incredibly selfless person in lots of other respects but because they won’t have a vaccine you judge them as selfish and don’t want to spend time with them? I think that says more about you as a person than them.

I really hope when things settle a bit and people become a bit less fearful, this sort of thinking will disappear and people will feel a bit ashamed that they ever even went there.

it makes me judge them for having a lack of critical thinking ability

Really? I don’t think it requires much critical thinking to go just along with the crowd ‘for the greater good’ tbh.

@NeverDropYourMoonCup yes, because the U.K. is the only place in the world where there could be a ‘reservoir for infection’

@bumbleymummy
Well some are COVID and some are other illnesses that weren’t able to be diagnosed/treated on time due to restrictions/fear of attending doctor surgeries etc, a few thousand are from cancer that wasn’t diagnosed/treated in a timely manner (we’ll see more of that sadly).

Gosh, well just imagine how many more of those there would have been if we hadn't locked down and simply let the virus rip at the time. Or are you of the baffling thinking that allowing the virus to rip would have meant more people would have had their cancer diagnosed/treated, more people able to access GP etc? It just makes no sense that you use this as an argument against restrictions and yet I've seen this time and again.

Besides that, there have been 150,000 covid deaths according to death certificates. That's not just with covid. It's death with covid as a main/contributory cause.

@blue12345
Already happened in my family
My cousin and husband came from Wales
We usually go together to see another cousin who lives in my town
Except me and my dh weren’t allowed
So I reckon she’s happy to never see me again

Ok, her call