Feeling so low about this new world of vaccines

[blue12345]

Just wondering if anyone else is in the same boat as me? For many reasons, I've decided not to get the Covid vaccine. I' have all my vaccines and all my kids are vaccinated. I state this to show I'm not an anti-vaxxer, although I increasingly feel like one.

I'm feeling very isolated from my friends and family as a result of this. Everyone I meet asks me am I booked in yet, am I double-vaccinated. I don't bother getting into conversations about it , but it still causes me anxiety and has led to friction. A very close friend has asked me a few times have I got an appointment for my vaccine yet and I've tried to brush her off, as I think she will be unlikely to want to spend time around me after she finds out I'm not getting it. I've also found that lots of friends have cut back on their contact with me.

I am very comfortable with my decision, but I'm just so sad that we now live in a world where the segregation of vaccinated and unvaccinated people is allowed, in both interpersonal relations and also looking more and more likely that services like restaurants and travel will be similarly restricted.

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

‘This idea that we all have to be vaccinated for ‘the greater good’ is just manipulative BS and doesn’t seem to apply in any other areas of our lives.‘

That’s because herd immunity is a feature of infectious diseases the way it isn’t with other aspects of life.
We wouldn’t achieve herd immunity to hunger for the remaining 5% through 95% of children being fed. We don’t get herd immunity to the effects of smoking for the few remaining smokers through everyone else giving up.
With transmissible disease, however, it is a thing which can be achieved with high enough participation.

Poverty/hunger kills a hell of a lot more people than viruses. 95% of those people not being hungry would make a massive difference so why don’t we apply the same rules if the point is to save lives?

You don’t achieve immunity for that 5% anyway, you just reduce their risk of contracting it. And a proportion of that 95% won’t be immune so can also put the 5% at risk.

Op, your refusal to accept someone else decision is more likely the reason people have backed off.

Your posts are not fact heavy. They are verging on the ridiculous.

This is why, issues like this divide people. I have varied away from people who were insisted covid was caused by 5g, last March. Not only did I think those people were dangerous and putting people at risk because they refused to lockdown and were damaging property. I just simply didn't want to be around some who has the kind set where they believe that sort of thing.

I also don't want them around my children.

Your view on this issues wi always impact relationships. If you were such a good person as you claim you would would that other people have choices too.

@Bovrilly

If Covid had killed millions of children and young people, I would stick a rusty needle in my arm to protect them. To me , that would be worth the greater good. Even if the median age of death had been 60, I would still think it was taking it away people in their prime

Getting pretty dystopian here OP. So where's your limit? At what age do you deem someone's life no longer worth protecting?

As much as I think not getting vaccinated is selfish, I understand what OP means here.

If you live until 82 you’ve had more than a good innings. So the average age is when the line is drawn for the majority of most people I suspect.

@TheKeatingFive

They haven't necessarily thought through whether it's a good choice for them personally because they don't feel that's really relevant

The best thing I can do for myself as an individual is get out of lockdown and get back to living normally.

Vaccines are the only way to do that without causing thousands and thousands of deaths and swamping the health service.

I’d love to know what you think the country should do if everyone took your approach. Lockdown long term or pile up the bodies?

Vaccinating the people most likely to end up in hospital is the ‘way out’ of restrictions because the restrictions were to prevent the nhs being overwhelmed. Vaccinating everyone should not be a requirement of ending restrictions. The vast majority of people will not be seriously ill with this.

You must understand though, that you ARE an extra risk to them if you meet in person.

She is no more of a risk for them than she was pre-vaccine when they were all meeting up.

Most illnesses you can catch don't have the definition of death from it as within 28 days of a positive test.

Hmm, if you are suggesting that not all these people died of Covid, how do you explain the excess deaths? Is there a secret illness that's killing people and sneakily allowing Covid to take the blame?

I’m nervous about new vaccines but I’ve had it

I’m more happy giving myself vaccines than I are to babies

I have one child who can’t have vaccines so feel it’s more important for me to be vaccinated to give them some protection from me passing it to them

@Bovrilly

Most illnesses you can catch don't have the definition of death from it as within 28 days of a positive test.

Hmm, if you are suggesting that not all these people died of Covid, how do you explain the excess deaths? Is there a secret illness that's killing people and sneakily allowing Covid to take the blame?

We currently have lower than expected deaths abd have done (for the most part) since March.

app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiYmUwNmFhMjYtNGZhYS00NDk2LWFlMTAtOTg0OGNhNmFiNGM0IiwidCI6ImVlNGUxNDk5LTRhMzUtNGIyZS1hZDQ3LTVmM2NmOWRlODY2NiIsImMiOjh9

"Getting pretty dystopian here OP. So where's your limit? At what age do you deem someone's life no longer worth protecting?"

As much as I think not getting vaccinated is selfish, I understand what OP means here. If you live until 82 you’ve had more than a good innings. So the average age is when the line is drawn for the majority of most people I suspect.

I really hope that the majority of people don't subscribe to that view. Do you think that anyone over the average age should be refused medical treatment then? Because they have had more than a good innings and the money would be better spent on someone younger whose life has more value?

We currently have lower than expected deaths abd have done (for the most part) since March.

But you seem to be suggesting that not all the 150k+ deaths from Covid have been caused by Covid, so need to look figures from March 2019, not March 2020.

@Bovrilly

We currently have lower than expected deaths abd have done (for the most part) since March.

But you seem to be suggesting that not all the 150k+ deaths from Covid have been caused by Covid, so need to look figures from March 2019, not March 2020.

*from March 2020!

@Bovrilly

"Getting pretty dystopian here OP. So where's your limit? At what age do you deem someone's life no longer worth protecting?"

As much as I think not getting vaccinated is selfish, I understand what OP means here. If you live until 82 you’ve had more than a good innings. So the average age is when the line is drawn for the majority of most people I suspect.

I really hope that the majority of people don't subscribe to that view. Do you think that anyone over the average age should be refused medical treatment then? Because they have had more than a good innings and the money would be better spent on someone younger whose life has more value?

I suspect most people do. Are you saying that if you live until the age of 82, that you’re hard done by???

You can try to twist it all you want, but that’s the life expectancy in the UK.

If there was a virus that affected younger people then most people would lock themselves away without ever being told. There wouldn’t be debate on here at all.

What people have an issue with, is the fact that the average age of someone that dies of covid, is the same age as the average age of life expectancy anyway.

Here you go @bumbleymummy
I even added them up for you, around 112,000 excess deaths in England and Wales between week 10 2020 and week 9 2021. What do you reckon caused them?

www.statista.com/statistics/1131428/excess-deaths-in-england-and-wales/

You can try to twist it all you want, but that’s the life expectancy in the UK.

Understood. But I've never heard anyone suggest that people who reach the average life expectancy are somehow less worthy of consideration before. I had no idea that people were dismissing the argument about protecting others because most people who die are old. I find it really shocking. Do you think the elderly shouldn't have access to medical treatment then? Because like it or not, that's the life expectancy? What about clinically vulnerable people, are they worth protecting, or should they count themselves lucky to have survived this long? (Many of whom have conditions that won't necessarily shorten their life.)

@Bovrilly

You can try to twist it all you want, but that’s the life expectancy in the UK.

Understood. But I've never heard anyone suggest that people who reach the average life expectancy are somehow less worthy of consideration before. I had no idea that people were dismissing the argument about protecting others because most people who die are old. I find it really shocking. Do you think the elderly shouldn't have access to medical treatment then? Because like it or not, that's the life expectancy? What about clinically vulnerable people, are they worth protecting, or should they count themselves lucky to have survived this long? (Many of whom have conditions that won't necessarily shorten their life.)

No no no, it’s nothing to do with them being less worthy. That’s your spin on it. That’s not what I said at all.

In an ideal world everyone would be saved all the time with no issues whatever. Of course it’s not that simple is it?

The majority of people have had their lives turned upside down and are suffering mental health affects and I include children in this.

Caring about everyone is great but there comes a point the public can’t be expected to put the health of strangers above their own needs and metal health.

People die every day. Flu kills thousands each year yet there would have been uproar in the past at the suggestion the general would be locked so no one died.

Now we’ve got the vaccines hopefully it’ll be no worse than flu… can’t prevent all deaths sadly

[quote Bovrilly]Here you go @bumbleymummy
I even added them up for you, around 112,000 excess deaths in England and Wales between week 10 2020 and week 9 2021. What do you reckon caused them?

www.statista.com/statistics/1131428/excess-deaths-in-england-and-wales/[/quote]
Well some are COVID and some are other illnesses that weren’t able to be diagnosed/treated on time due to restrictions/fear of attending doctor surgeries etc, a few thousand are from cancer that wasn’t diagnosed/treated in a timely manner (we’ll see more of that sadly).

I think you might be confusing me the poster you replied to originally though. I just provided the link to excess deaths because I think it’s interesting that at the moment we have fewer than expected.

To add - I was answering the question regarding why OP would have the vaccine if it affected people say under 60. 82 wasn’t my personal opinion, I was pointing out that many people would say 82 is the average age.

I’ve recently been invited to a party and the invitation stated that all adults attending the event have confirmed to be double vaccinated.
A married couple from our social circle have been excluded because they are not vaccinated (by choice). They are our close friends so it feels a bit uncomfortable.
It’s the first example of this I’ve seen but I think it might become more common now.

I personally didn’t want to have the vaccine and really didn’t like the idea of injecting my body with something that hasn’t gone through many years of tests. However I have had it because it was the right thing to do.
Just imagine if we all decided not to have it because it’s our ‘personal’ choice - thousands would still be dying of COVID now. Millions of people in this country have gone ahead with the vaccination despite not feeling happy about it.

@TheKeatingFive

They haven't necessarily thought through whether it's a good choice for them personally because they don't feel that's really relevant

The best thing I can do for myself as an individual is get out of lockdown and get back to living normally.

Vaccines are the only way to do that without causing thousands and thousands of deaths and swamping the health service.

I’d love to know what you think the country should do if everyone took your approach. Lockdown long term or pile up the bodies?

You've basically proven my point by saying that you feel everyone has to get a vaccine or we'll have to 'pile up the bodies,' ie there isn't a choice.

In that context, people aren't giving informed consent to a medical treatment, they're being scared into something that they feel they can't get out of.

@QueenCoconut

I’ve recently been invited to a party and the invitation stated that all adults attending the event have confirmed to be double vaccinated. A married couple from our social circle have been excluded because they are not vaccinated (by choice). They are our close friends so it feels a bit uncomfortable. It’s the first example of this I’ve seen but I think it might become more common now.

I personally didn’t want to have the vaccine and really didn’t like the idea of injecting my body with something that hasn’t gone through many years of tests. However I have had it because it was the right thing to do.
Just imagine if we all decided not to have it because it’s our ‘personal’ choice - thousands would still be dying of COVID now. Millions of people in this country have gone ahead with the vaccination despite not feeling happy about it.

Exactly this. The last paragraph is spot on

I think the average age for Covid deaths is misunderstood. The fact that it is the same as the underlying average age of death is taken to be that there isn't a particular risk to younger people.

Yes, you are more likely to die the older you are, but it's a fallacy to conclude that it only really effects older people. They are just even more impacted than younger people.

For instance, if we had a famine in the U.K., it's likely that 90 year olds would die at a far greater rate than 40 year olds as their bodies are generally a lot weaker. It doesn't follow that just because 90 year olds are impacted worse that famine wouldn't be very harmful, even deadly, to 40 year olds.

The vast majority of people will not be seriously ill with this

They could be though, if a more deadly variant evolves.

Which is more likely the fewer people are vaccinated.

People who choose not to get vaccinated are increasing the risk of variants which could be more deadly, more transmissible, harder to vaccinate against.

That’s why it matters beyond the individual’s right to bodily autonomy.

I agree with an individual’s right to choose, but I do have views on the choice they make.

We need to take responsibility for our choices.

*No no no, it’s nothing to do with them being less worthy. That’s your spin on it. That’s not what I said at all.
*
Well you did say that the public shouldn't be expected to put the health of strangers above their own needs. But that if younger people were dying everyone would lock themselves away without being told. Which does suggest that you think the life of a young stranger is worth more than that of an old stranger.

What about vulnerable people who are young? Should we go out of our way to protect them or let them take their chances?

The majority of people have had their lives turned upside down and are suffering mental health affects and I include children in this.

Not sure what this has to do with vaccination, other than if you worry about the effects of lockdown, maybe vaccination is the way to go?

Caring about everyone is great but there comes a point the public can’t be expected to put the health of strangers above their own needs and metal health.

If you can't bring yourself to care about other people, why not only think about yourself and get vaccinated because the risk of harm from Covid is greater than the risk of harm from the vaccine?

For instance, if Covid increased your chance of mortality by 50%, more 90 years would die as they have a higher base chance of mortality in the first place... It wouldn't take away from the fact that 40 year old also have a 50% increased chance of death (50% is merely an illustrative
figure).

I think you might be confusing me the poster you replied to originally though.

Yes sorry, I should be asking @CrouchEndTiger12 if they're suggesting that not all the Covid deaths were actually Covid deaths. And if so, what do they think caused all the excess deaths.