Page 18 | Feeling so low about this new world of vaccines

Kiwirose · 08/07/2021 10:39

You are free to make your own decisions but you are not free from the consequences of your decisions.

You could choose to rob a bank but the consequence is you would go to prison. You could choose to smoke but the consequence is that others might not want to be around you if they don't want to engage in passive smoking. Not taking the vaccine is the same. Your choice not to be vaccinated does increase the risk of spread and transmission to others your argument of I'm not endangering them. is not true. You are prioritising your own needs and wants over everything else and maybe your friends don't like that. Their making a choice not to be with you is exactly the same choice you are making about the vaccine.

MrsKeats · 08/07/2021 10:40

I would avoid contact with anyone unvaccinated,
All this hand wringing when developing countries are begging for help getting the vaccine seems disgusting to me.
The vaccine has broken the link between cases and deaths; anyone can see that.
What state would we be in without it?
Or other vaccines for that matter?

babbaloushka · 08/07/2021 11:08

@Kiwirose

You are free to make your own decisions but you are not free from the consequences of your decisions.

You could choose to rob a bank but the consequence is you would go to prison. You could choose to smoke but the consequence is that others might not want to be around you if they don't want to engage in passive smoking. Not taking the vaccine is the same. Your choice not to be vaccinated does increase the risk of spread and transmission to others your argument of I'm not endangering them. is not true. You are prioritising your own needs and wants over everything else and maybe your friends don't like that. Their making a choice not to be with you is exactly the same choice you are making about the vaccine.

This is well explained and applicable to all the limitations non-vaccinated people may face, such as travel, work, events etc. Freedom of choice, not freedom from consequences.

CharleyChook · 08/07/2021 11:19

I had an excellent relationship with my DB until this past month. DB is 21. His GF threw him out because he refused to have the vaccine, yet still expected GF’s CEV mother to welcome him into her home. She obviously couldn’t call round to see the baby. His attitude was “her problem”. He moved back home with my CEV parents. One is on oxygen, the other is a heart patient. Both are double vaccinated.

DS and I have spoken with him many times about how he is putting his parents, and others, at risk. He couldn’t care less. His attitude is that he is young and healthy so the vaccine is of no benefit to him yet should he get Covid he fully expects to be treated at an NHS hospital. Unbelievable!

DS and I have been round to DP’s this morning, collected all his belongings and dumped them at his place of work. He is not the person we thought he was. Selfish, selfish, selfish and ignorant! Now he has nowhere to live. His problem

LAMPS1 · 08/07/2021 11:22

I feel for you OP and agree with you that it is indeed, very sad that this issue is so divisive. Please don’t blame your vaccinated friends for their choices though, blame the horrid, killer-virus covid instead against which they are trying to protect themselves as well as the vulnerable who wish they could be vaccinated but can’t be.
Your vaccinated friends can still be friends in other ways and hopefully, they will still want to meet outdoors or do zoom calls/face-time with you to keep the friendships going.
You must understand though, that you ARE an extra risk to them if you meet in person. Look at it like this…your unvaccinated body is more of a conduit for spreading the virus than theirs, and even worse, it’s more of a mutation factory. If enough unvaccinated people get together and between them, produce a new variant that our current vaccines don’t cover, then we are all back to square one with the NHS on its knees again and the death rate off the scale. Far less likely that that happens with groups of vaccinated people.
I don’t like that it has come to this great divide situation at all. It’s awful. But, for my own very personal reasons which may not be apparent to my friends, I will do all I can not to mix indoors with unvaccinated people. I will be the one who misses out by not joining in with my social circle because I find it kinder to do that than to accentuate the fact that others aren’t up front about not being vaccinated. If I am asked about my absence, I make a general excuse about wanting to give herd immunity more time rather than point the finger.
It’s up to you if you are up front about it or not. These days, there are suddenly new and different consequences for all our actions which we must be wise about.

Theworldisfullofgs · 08/07/2021 11:24

Ok, I'm just going to step away from this post now, I was silly to think this could be discussed with people in a calm fashion.

Interesting perspective as it doesn't seem uncalm to me, it's just the majority disagree with you.

MarshaBradyo · 08/07/2021 11:25

@Theworldisfullofgs

Ok, I'm just going to step away from this post now, I was silly to think this could be discussed with people in a calm fashion.

Interesting perspective as it doesn't seem uncalm to me, it's just the majority disagree with you.

I agree

It hasn’t been not calm

Maybe not what op wanted to hear maybe

FreeBritnee · 08/07/2021 11:35

I actually thought it was a civilised conversation too! 🤷‍♀️

Robin233 · 08/07/2021 11:45

@TheTallOakTrees

MareofBeasttown
@Geamhradh I do not believe the anxiety on MN over vaccines is representative of the real world, so I doubt we are as fucked as it appears. IRL every single person I know has taken it, except the friend I mentioned. And she is going to take it before winter.
I find this too, my friends, family, Co professionals have all commented about having had their vaccine and hoping to get back to normal.
Only one neighbour, fruit loops on social media and some on mn seem anti vaccine.
^^
Me too
Everyone I know from work (huge organisations) all double vaccinated

All neighbours and friends.
Side effects include sore arms, tiredness , flu like symptoms.
Non serious.
We all couldn't wait to be vaccinated. It's the only way out of lockdowns.

Skybluepinkgiraffe · 08/07/2021 11:53

I haven't read full thread but yes, all decisions have consequences as posters on this page have suggested. Personally I'm vaccinated and intend to mix with people as allowed and not asking questions, despite being cev. But other people in my position may well feel unsafe. I just can't be bothered to fret about it any more.

TentTalk · 08/07/2021 11:53

I have to sit next to an unvaccinated person at work at I'm furious to be honest. He has a number of additional risk factors and I know that it's his choice, his risk etc but the thought I could potentially pass it to him frustrates me, and that he's more likely to pass it to me really annoys me as it increases my risk of long covid or spreading the virus to the CEV people we work with. But I still don't think it should be mandatory.

TheDevils · 08/07/2021 12:00

I do not believe the anxiety on MN over vaccines is representative of the real world, so I doubt we are as fucked as it appears. IRL every single person I know has taken it, except the friend I mentioned. And she is going to take it before winter

Completely agree. Everyone I know is volunteering the fact they've had the vaccine. They're happy about it and want to share!

I have one friend on fb who is refusing but they're now full on conspiracy theorist and don't believe covid even exists!

boobot1 · 08/07/2021 12:06

[quote blue12345]@TheKeatingFive

If any of them were medically vulnerable, of course? But lots of them are already double vaccinated, none are vulnerable, so surely they are confident that the vaccine they've taken has worked?

Nothing has fundamentally changed since we spent time together in other lulls in the Pandemic, when case rates were higher and the vulnerable and elderly were unvaccinated. But it's as if now I'm making a conscious decision to be unvaccinated, versus before when everyone was unvaccinated, it's worse? [/quote]
Honestly I think you care to much about other people think. Your body, your choice, even if it's not most peoples choice. I'm sure you have your reasons.

Flowerlane · 08/07/2021 12:16

@blue12345 unfortunately these types of threads only go one way it seems, hope you are ok

I am also unvaccinated through choice at this stage. I have only had a couple of close friends ask about vaccines and I have been honest and said no not at his stage I will not be having it. They have respected my choice as I have respected their choice to have it. Nothing has changed in our relationship 2 of us go on holiday together in a few weeks staying in the same cabin!
Other friends I am not as close to haven’t even asked as I haven’t to them. Why would others ask someone’s medical status is beyond me. I find that rude.

Think you need better friends to be honest. If others don’t respect your choice they are not worth the time.

Skybluepinkgiraffe · 08/07/2021 12:20

Is it really rude @Flowerlane? Whether somebody is vaccinated does have an impact on other people's health, especially if like me they are cev. I think it's polite to give the info so other people can make their choices.
Remember when people were allowed to smoke anywhere with no regard to the people who didn't want to breathe in second hand smoke? It feels a little bit like that to me.

Flowerlane · 08/07/2021 12:25

@Skybluepinkgiraffe

Is it really rude *@Flowerlane*? Whether somebody is vaccinated does have an impact on other people's health, especially if like me they are cev. I think it's polite to give the info so other people can make their choices. Remember when people were allowed to smoke anywhere with no regard to the people who didn't want to breathe in second hand smoke? It feels a little bit like that to me.

I’m high risk as well but other peoples vaccination status is not my business. There are many other illnesses out there that can be caught and have deadly consequences for some but they are never brought up in conversation so why should this be any different?

Geamhradh · 08/07/2021 12:39

Because most illnesses you can catch haven't caused 150,000 deaths in one country in a year?
Does this still really need saying?

TheDailyCarbunkle · 08/07/2021 12:50

OP I get where you're coming from. I've also chosen not to be vaccinated - many of my friends and my DH have been vaccinated and they've mostly been fine about my choice thankfully.

One thing that might be of small consolation is that I don't think people's reactions are really about you and your choices. People have been made to feel they have no choice but be vaccinated - it's 'for the greater good' and the only way to get their freedom back. They haven't necessarily thought through whether it's a good choice for them personally because they don't feel that's really relevant - they've been told this is what they have to do and so what option do they have? When someone starts talking about the very valid reasons to question blanket vaccination, it upsets them because it makes them feel uncertain - hence the unwillingness to even consider solid evidence around serious side effects and potential long term complications. Their decision is right and good and that's it - no argument. Once you've had a vaccine there's no going back so it's not comfortable to question the choice in any way after the fact and someone who says 'I've made a different choice' brings those questions up in an unavoidable way - if you made the choice to say no then maybe they could have done the same and they don't want to consider it. It's too hard.
The whole thing about avoiding unvaccinated people doesn't make logical sense - there are unvaccinated people literally everywhere as many simply can't have it for many reasons. The point-making about avoiding you is about asserting identity and moral attitude, not about any risk.

Many of them will get over themselves in years to come, so if there are some you still value it might be worth having compassion for the position they've been put in and just hanging in there for a while. Others will have just revealed themselves as a waste of time - better to know that now rather than later I suppose.

changingstages · 08/07/2021 12:52

@blue12345

Just wondering if anyone else is in the same boat as me? For many reasons, I've decided not to get the Covid vaccine. I' have all my vaccines and all my kids are vaccinated. I state this to show I'm not an anti-vaxxer, although I increasingly feel like one.

I'm feeling very isolated from my friends and family as a result of this. Everyone I meet asks me am I booked in yet, am I double-vaccinated. I don't bother getting into conversations about it , but it still causes me anxiety and has led to friction. A very close friend has asked me a few times have I got an appointment for my vaccine yet and I've tried to brush her off, as I think she will be unlikely to want to spend time around me after she finds out I'm not getting it. I've also found that lots of friends have cut back on their contact with me.

I am very comfortable with my decision, but I'm just so sad that we now live in a world where the segregation of vaccinated and unvaccinated people is allowed, in both interpersonal relations and also looking more and more likely that services like restaurants and travel will be similarly restricted.

oh well. You've made your decision. I was so sad about deaths from Covid and all the related deaths and struggles around that. So we've all had our crosses to bear.

bumbleymummy · 08/07/2021 12:52

I see non-vaccination as a sign of prioritising your own personal wellbeing over the greater good of society.

Of course people prioritise their own well being(and their family’s) over the ‘greater good’ of society. we don’t give all our money away to everyone else around us and live in poverty. We don’t feed other people’s children before our own. People can choose to have the vaccine to protect themselves first and foremost. An added bonus is that when lots of people are immune (through vaccination or infection) transmission goes down. This idea that we all have to be vaccinated for ‘the greater good’ is just manipulative BS and doesn’t seem to apply in any other areas of our lives.

CrouchEndTiger12 · 08/07/2021 12:54

@Geamhradh

Because most illnesses you can catch haven't caused 150,000 deaths in one country in a year? Does this still really need saying?

Most illnesses you can catch don't have the definition of death from it as within 28 days of a positive test.

Katya213 · 08/07/2021 12:56

OP, i chose to get the vaccine, you didnt, whats the problem? I dont lose sleep over people not taking vaccines, i really dont care.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 08/07/2021 12:56

‘This idea that we all have to be vaccinated for ‘the greater good’ is just manipulative BS and doesn’t seem to apply in any other areas of our lives.‘

That’s because herd immunity is a feature of infectious diseases the way it isn’t with other aspects of life.
We wouldn’t achieve herd immunity to hunger for the remaining 5% through 95% of children being fed. We don’t get herd immunity to the effects of smoking for the few remaining smokers through everyone else giving up.
With transmissible disease, however, it is a thing which can be achieved with high enough participation.

TheKeatingFive · 08/07/2021 13:07

They haven't necessarily thought through whether it's a good choice for them personally because they don't feel that's really relevant

The best thing I can do for myself as an individual is get out of lockdown and get back to living normally.

Vaccines are the only way to do that without causing thousands and thousands of deaths and swamping the health service.

I’d love to know what you think the country should do if everyone took your approach. Lockdown long term or pile up the bodies?

TheDailyCarbunkle · 08/07/2021 13:07

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

‘This idea that we all have to be vaccinated for ‘the greater good’ is just manipulative BS and doesn’t seem to apply in any other areas of our lives.‘

That’s because herd immunity is a feature of infectious diseases the way it isn’t with other aspects of life.
We wouldn’t achieve herd immunity to hunger for the remaining 5% through 95% of children being fed. We don’t get herd immunity to the effects of smoking for the few remaining smokers through everyone else giving up.
With transmissible disease, however, it is a thing which can be achieved with high enough participation.

I don't understand this point. It is genuinely possible to feel every single person in the world, with the right will, organisation and money. It's a technically simple thing to do - get food and give it to the people who need it. The only things that's stopping it from happening is apathy on the part of people who already have enough to eat.

In contract, covid will continue to go around and kill people regardless of vaccinations. It'll happen in lower numbers with vaccinations but it'll never be possible to protect every single person.

So I'm not sure your argument stands.