No masks after 19th July- despite the scientific consensus for them

[herecomesthsun]

I happened to notice that we had reached 1000 posts on the other thread - so I started a new one .

@Baystard

Arguing about mask wearing is the epitome of pointless.

Some members of the community care about those around them enough to put up with minor inconvenience* for the benefit of others. Some value their own comfort more highly than the safety of others. I don't say that as an inflammatory statement, it's just how things are.

*granted for a small number of people a mask is more than a minor inconvenience.

Good point, and it does provide a quick, easy and very visible way to pass judgement.

inews.co.uk/news/politics/ministers-ditched-face-masks-after-being-warned-the-economy-would-lose-billions-1089589

[quote MercyBooth]inews.co.uk/news/politics/ministers-ditched-face-masks-after-being-warned-the-economy-would-lose-billions-1089589[/quote]
It would be interesting to see if a quality-adjusted life year calculation was done to work out whether the GDP boost is enough to outweigh the loss of life. I don't think this seemed to be done (at least not publicly) earlier in the pandemic (although I stand to be corrected).

@Baystard

Arguing about mask wearing is the epitome of pointless.

Some members of the community care about those around them enough to put up with minor inconvenience* for the benefit of others. Some value their own comfort more highly than the safety of others. I don't say that as an inflammatory statement, it's just how things are.

*granted for a small number of people a mask is more than a minor inconvenience.

It's not just that though. I read the Telegraph - it has some good articles, but the comments from the readership are fascinating.

Masks are a sort of reverse fetish item for a certain sort of Tory. Wearing a "muzzle" marks you out as a "Sheeple" and asking kids to wear them is the worst sort of child abuse in their eyes.

I think part of it might be because they are so opposed to collective measures for the greater good. People actually say that they think all mask wearers must be horrible socialists; they think this is a big political divide (like Remainers and Brexiters).

It's really interesting to hear someone on here say that " would rather have a much higher risk of death to me and my children but no masks so support the decision to remove them on 19 July."

That's quite an allegiance. I'd love to understand that better.

It must be also down to where you live and friendship groups

I only know one person who refuses to wear a mask…she got one of those lanyard thingies (shes very proud of not wearing a mask)

I hate masks, have struggled with misting up glasses and can't wait for it to no longer be law. However... that doesn't mean I won't ever wear one for the next few months if I judge it might be wise to do so. For example, we've recently had a nasty cough, cold thing going around our nursery. Covid tests have been negative but I would probably wear a mask while I had this just in case and to stop passing it on to anyone. I like that it is going to be personal judgement rather than law. Sitting up stairs on an empty bus it seems pointless. The same journey on a crowded bus and you can see it might be helpful, for example. I'm double jabbed and have to do LFT for my job, I feel that I am able to risk assess my need to wear a mask at this stage of our understanding of covid transmission.

they think this is a big political divide (like Remainers and Brexiters)

There’s similar language around the division. People who don’t want to wear masks are accused of wrongthink and selfishness and of being a bit thick and those who want to wear masks forever are unselfish, correct and morally superior. I dislike this current trend of being so perfomatively moral, it’s not intellectually honest.

I want them to go so I can have a smear without a mask. Everything else I’ve managed - blood tests, injections, other examinations, etc. but that’s beyond me. My GP surgery doesn’t allow exemptions even though it’s known from my records that I have problems with smears - they are extremely painful and bleed since I had abnormal cells removed. If I can use breathing to get through it, I can just about manage. In a mask, hell no. But they won’t allow me to remove it for the procedure despite being double jabbed and LF tested twice a week for work. Madness. So as soon as masks are no longer a legal requirement I’ll be going to get a smear test.

@Enb76

they think this is a big political divide (like Remainers and Brexiters)

There’s similar language around the division. People who don’t want to wear masks are accused of wrongthink and selfishness and of being a bit thick and those who want to wear masks forever are unselfish, correct and morally superior. I dislike this current trend of being so perfomatively moral, it’s not intellectually honest.

Well, on the Telegraph comments, the morality divide goes the other way. The people who think masks are a good idea are horrible lefties who are bringing the downfall of society and the mask refuses are the righteous ones.

@PineappleMojito I havent had a smear since 2014 I find them incredibly painful and yes breathing through it a certain way was necessary. I certainly couldnt do it in a mask. Mentioning this on another thread i got the disgustingly misogynistic comment. "perhaps you are wearing it over the wrong lips" Moot point anyway as i have been refusing smears for the past seven years.

Well @herecomesthsun the most mask zealous person i know who thinks everyone should wear a mask with no exceptions has an ex wife who had to flee to a Refuge.
There are plenty of coercively controlling abusers like him who are loving this. Along with those who choose to align themselves with people like this.

It would be interesting to see if a quality-adjusted life year calculation was done to work out whether the GDP boost is enough to outweigh the loss of life. I don't think this seemed to be done (at least not publicly) earlier in the pandemic (although I stand to be corrected)

Have they said what level of loss of life is expected specifically due to making masks voluntary?

They did this calculation for lockdown vs unchecked covid, and it was 3,000,000 QALYS for covid unchecked, vs 975,000 QALYS over the next five years because of the effects of social distancing and lockdown. I would have thought it would be shed to isolate how many covid deaths are attributable to people not wearing a mask but I’d be interested to know

@SlipperyDippery

It would be interesting to see if a quality-adjusted life year calculation was done to work out whether the GDP boost is enough to outweigh the loss of life. I don't think this seemed to be done (at least not publicly) earlier in the pandemic (although I stand to be corrected)

Have they said what level of loss of life is expected specifically due to making masks voluntary?

They did this calculation for lockdown vs unchecked covid, and it was 3,000,000 QALYS for covid unchecked, vs 975,000 QALYS over the next five years because of the effects of social distancing and lockdown. I would have thought it would be shed to isolate how many covid deaths are attributable to people not wearing a mask but I’d be interested to know

That's really interesting @SlipperyDippery, do you by any chance have a link?

So that estimate suggests that the restrictions have saved 2,025,000 quality-adjusted life years? I guess the next question is what has been the total financial cost to the economy of the restrictions and therefore what value has been placed on each quality-adjusted life year.

here, you quoted me and I have made a similar point quite a few times since March 2020. I do not think I or anyone can generalise about the views of those of us against mandatory measures since that date. Everyone has different views on these things. I believe more people have died from the mandatory measures as they have caused problems with things like people's mental health and problems with losing jobs and sometimes no access to NHS care for other conditions in some areas. Also masks can mean people take less care as they think mask = can get to close to someone. We could all write 5000 word essays on our personal positions. I accept I am on the wrong side of the world's view on this - almost every country has imposed requirements, not left it to choice. So I am sure I cannot convince anyone from their current position.

Give me liberty or give me death is not a concept I invented. Everything is a balance of risks. If we are just talking about masks alone (and you could do a PhD on the moral and ethical issues of the pandemic of course) I find them very hard to wear and am probably exempt but generally follow all laws (don't even go over the speed limit) so have been wearing it in the shop. Obviously we can all pick out extremist people on each side but it would be wrong to say everyone on each side has one reason for their view.

Anyway hopefully the nation can come together as masks go on Freedom day and we can get on with continuing to rub along together as the British are pretty good at doing.

We had an email from work last night that masks would remain in the communal areas of the office in respect for vulnerable colleagues and visitors and as not everyone had their second vaccine yet.

Hi @MurielSpriggs, this is where I got it from (someone posted it on Mumsnet a while back!) This is the summary but there’s a link to the full report as well

www.ons.gov.uk/news/statementsandletters/estimatingtheimpactsofcoronavirusonenglandsmortalityandmorbidity

@Xenia

here, you quoted me and I have made a similar point quite a few times since March 2020. I do not think I or anyone can generalise about the views of those of us against mandatory measures since that date. Everyone has different views on these things. I believe more people have died from the mandatory measures as they have caused problems with things like people's mental health and problems with losing jobs and sometimes no access to NHS care for other conditions in some areas. Also masks can mean people take less care as they think mask = can get to close to someone. We could all write 5000 word essays on our personal positions. I accept I am on the wrong side of the world's view on this - almost every country has imposed requirements, not left it to choice. So I am sure I cannot convince anyone from their current position.

Give me liberty or give me death is not a concept I invented. Everything is a balance of risks. If we are just talking about masks alone (and you could do a PhD on the moral and ethical issues of the pandemic of course) I find them very hard to wear and am probably exempt but generally follow all laws (don't even go over the speed limit) so have been wearing it in the shop. Obviously we can all pick out extremist people on each side but it would be wrong to say everyone on each side has one reason for their view.

Anyway hopefully the nation can come together as masks go on Freedom day and we can get on with continuing to rub along together as the British are pretty good at doing.

Thank you Xenia.

Regarding the NHS, I think that having measures to bring down covid numbers enables other areas then to function more normally.

The concern currently is that the rise in covid cases with "Freedom Day" will interfere with attempts to tackle waiting lists in other areas.

The issues around mental health are complex too.

I don't think that it is exactly "one size fits all" with people expressing libertarian views, but there do seem to be themes and ones with teasing out, if possible.

Also, I have not seen anyone berated either for wearing a mask or for not wearing one,

Although, given that we have spent a lot of time shielding, I have literally "not been out much".

"I believe more people have died from the mandatory measures as they have caused problems with things like people's mental health and problems with losing jobs and sometimes no access to NHS care for other conditions in some areas."

Then protect mental health - from 19th, those people who find it damaging to their mental health needn't wear a mask - that's good - but as you won't make any difference, positive or negative, to THAT group by not wearing one yourself, why not help THIS (I'd wager considerably larger) group, by wearing one?:

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/06/freedom-day-fear-elderly-people-charities-warn-england-covid

And protect those with cancer - my God, if the NHS is starting to struggle and cancel ops now, with projected numbers expected to double and potentially more than quadruple, then as long as there's the slightest chance that your mask, if you're able to wear one, could mitigate that (and there is a consensus among global health bodies that, despite the complex science, it could; they're the experts), why - WHY?! - wouldn't you?:

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/08/nhs-hospitals-forced-to-cancel-operations-again-by-unfolding-third-wave

Losing jobs-wise, thankfully, I think it's fairly unlikely being forced to wear a mask lost anyone their job, as there were exemptions in place before (and I know you probably weren't saying it did). And a lot of people have said many, many workers will actually feel MORE comfortable in their jobs maskless - great. So, why not add to these varied benefits by doing your bit and wearing a mask to potentially, just perhaps, SAVE a job yourself, now, too? My friend is CV and has to travel on a packed bus to work in a shop, and she has no alternative but to face this increased risk... unless she looks for a new job (right now, in these conditions? nightmare!) or begins to rely on savings. She's one of many.

PS Have just seen above that you find them very hard to wear, Xenia, so of course you have to make your own decisions there; as an asthmatic who suffered through a cover lesson in a mask with bad asthma, I know there are some times it can be really tough to keep one on. So please consider the above directed more widely at all who make the cancer / mental health / jobs arguments, as, as I see it, they just don't hold up if you're someone for whom mask-wearing is a minor discomfort only. I'd love to hear counter-arguments, though; the title of this thread seems to have attracted people who are more willing to explore the issues in depth than in the other thread...

Have caught up on the whole thread, now. Essay-alert!

Really interesting, thoughtful points, esp. re. the divisiveness this causes. I hold the gov. responsible for a large amount of that - it's always manipulative false dichotomies, like "Now or never!" or "Freedom day" (by implication, masks instantly become oppressive & totalitarian, totally contradicting the gov's supposed message that there are contexts in which they should be worn). Even "taking responsibility" risks implying "for yourself" and omits the important "for others" to muddy the waters (and that's why I'm so vocally pro-mask and trying to persuade people to think my way; cos there's only so much my CV friend and others like here CAN do to "take responsibility" for their own safety without some larger-scale intervention eg. enforcing masks on public transport when possible; she's been left helpless, totally reliant on the other 30 people on the bus, which seems deeply wrong when our elected reps have been given the responsibility to mandate collective permanent or short-term measures to protect the vulnerable on society's behalf when necessary eg. seatbelts / drink driving / smoking).

I do find comments re. virtue signalling a bit unfair. I can see my own posts could come across that way, too - but I think that's kind of unavoidable, when the whole basis of them is that I believe something is ethically sound and am trying to convince other people who don't share that belief to join me! - but, seriously, never once have I put on a mask and thought, "THAT'LL show 'em! Hah!" Frankly, that'd be a bit weird. Yes, in what I and others write, there's a degree of "I'm doing the right thing, dammit, why can't you SEE that!", cos that comes with our belief in masks - but to say that equates to virtue-signalling, for me at least, diminishes my deep-seated fear for my friends and family and those like them, and my lifelong belief in the positive potential of society, to something that's just superficial, selfish and smug. When my feelings are driven by a quietly desperate fear for others, I do sometimes rather resent that.

And if you read all that, congrats and thanks! Over and out, for now. :)

(It's coming home!!!)

@Xenia @Stuffin - masks protect others more than they protect you. So what you're actually saying is you would rather not protect people than wear a mask. Have I got that right?