No masks after 19th July- despite the scientific consensus for them

[herecomesthsun]

I happened to notice that we had reached 1000 posts on the other thread - so I started a new one .

Breathing uninhibited is beneficial to the person breathing (breathing is also not optional). It does not cause harm by default

The 'default' resets during a pandemic, especially when transmission is high. Your exhalations are a highly likely cause of harm. That is why exhalations are contained.

For smoke exhalations, by banning smoking indoors. For potentially infectious exhalations, by obtaining them in masks.

In both cases, the aim is to prevent the exhalations doing harm. In both cases, the single encounter with exhalations may or may not cause direct harm. But for both, the cumulative effect of any escalations poses a real risk. Which is not a fair one as mitigations exist.

It is interesting to see how widely the prevalent conditions which lead to inability to wear a masjpk vary between countries.

Camp Whitty here!

If they remain in medical settings, I wonder whether that will include blood donation clinics. I'm not overly keen on the idea of giving blood wearing a mask (I have spent most of the last 16 months ineligible owing to pregnancy/ having given birth so haven't tried it yet - I used to be a regular donor).

I do have to psych myself up to give blood (I find it pretty unpleasant anyway), and I could see mask wearing meaning that I do it just that little bit less often. That by itself of course probably doesn't matter. But it will if I'm not the only one who feels like this.

Conversely of course there might be people who will only want to attend a blood donation clinic if everyone is masked. Maybe the solution is to run two clinics: with and without masks.

P.S. If anyone is gearing up to call me selfish for saying I'd give blood less often, that's ok, as long as you yourself give as regularly as permitted (that's what I used to do). Otherwise it's rather hypocritical of you to get upset that I'm proposing not to do something you don't do either.

Hell of a lot virtue signalling going on.

‘I wear a mask to protect others’ is going to be the new ‘stay the fuck home’

@SmidgenofaPigeon

Hell of a lot virtue signalling going on.

‘I wear a mask to protect others’ is going to be the new ‘stay the fuck home’

I had to laugh at the fact that 'humility' was the very first word!

The American lifestyle blogger who I imagine wrote that doesn't sound very 'humble' to me. Smug and patronising would be more like it.

Personally I don’t give a damn if people think I’m selfish for ditching my mask. I’ve complied 100% with this shit for over a year now and quite honestly I’ve stuck to the rules 100% even when I haven’t wanted to or seen the point in doing so. So now that I finally have permission not to wear a mask I won’t be wearing one. People need to do whatever they feel comfortable whilst at the same time minding the damn business what other people chose to do.

1. Humility: why should I need to display humility? I'm vaccinated, have a low risk lifestyle. I don't need to advertise it.

1. Kindness: while I can understand the concerns of people who have not had the opportunity to be vaccinated or cannot trust the vaccine's efficacy with their health, obstructing the face in public is not a universal kindness to all.

1. Community: being unable to interact with people properly damages my sense of community. It's hard work and draining to deal with the interference to sound quality and facial expression, so I don't look at masked faces (even friends or DH) so I can concentrate purely on putting the sounds together without added "intereference". Masks quell my desire to communicate with people. I stopped volunteering indoors over the winter because of these problems. I have not frequented businesses where they are required for a long period, and have only been to a limited number of shops. They inhibit my sense of connection to people.

I'm not going to stop anyone wearing them. I just want people to acknowledge that for a measure that has dubious benefits in the community, that there are many people who are disadvantaged by mask use (both wearing and on others) and to stop the lies that they are a little harmless measure, and that their social impact is far greyer and messy, not a simple black and white issue.

I just saw this on my facebook feed. I didn't write it myself - it's a little bit American; but I do wonder what people would find in it to disagree with so very strongly.

Well I don't agree that they understand the meaning of the word "humility"

Otherwise it's not something you can disagree with. They are just explaining their reasoning for their ethical choices, and good for them (although if they wear that on a bit of string round their neck they will seem a bit show-off sanctimonious).

It's when people start using legal compulsion to force their ethical choices onto others that things get more complicated.

The 'default' resets during a pandemic, especially when transmission is high. Your exhalations are a highly likely cause of harm

Even at the peak of the pandemic, only a small minority had the virus. So no, it's not true that "your exhalations are a highly likely cause of harm." Statistically, it's highly unlikely in fact.

In both cases, the single encounter with exhalations may or may not cause direct harm. But for both, the cumulative effect of any escalations poses a real risk.

Not really. Inhaling cigarette smoke is always bad. If done only rarely, it's unlikely to do you much harm, but it's easy to identify a person who chooses to smoke and quite reasonable to ask them to take steps to protect others.

With face masks, the vast majority of people's 'exhalations' will not be harmful, though it's hard to know which. During the peak of the pandemic, it's reasonable to ask for universal mask wearing, but as vaccination rates increase and the risk to the general population falls, there comes a point where it's reasonable to say they are no longer a legal requirement. It's debatable whether that point will be reached on July 19th, but sooner or later it has to happen.

The 'default' resets during a pandemic, especially when transmission is high. Your exhalations are a highly likely cause of harm. That is why exhalations are contained.

only if I caught it off a tree in the past 10 days

I jest. I did whizz quickly around a near empty supermarket shortly before closing last week. I've either been in the house or in quiet outdoor spaces. No close contacts beyond my household (also low risk) to report to Test and Trace.
It would be daft to assume Typhoid Mary status, and it's not healthy to view any given person as a disease vector. I prefer to see people as humans.

@110APiccadilly

If they remain in medical settings, I wonder whether that will include blood donation clinics. I'm not overly keen on the idea of giving blood wearing a mask (I have spent most of the last 16 months ineligible owing to pregnancy/ having given birth so haven't tried it yet - I used to be a regular donor).

I do have to psych myself up to give blood (I find it pretty unpleasant anyway), and I could see mask wearing meaning that I do it just that little bit less often. That by itself of course probably doesn't matter. But it will if I'm not the only one who feels like this.

Conversely of course there might be people who will only want to attend a blood donation clinic if everyone is masked. Maybe the solution is to run two clinics: with and without masks.

P.S. If anyone is gearing up to call me selfish for saying I'd give blood less often, that's ok, as long as you yourself give as regularly as permitted (that's what I used to do). Otherwise it's rather hypocritical of you to get upset that I'm proposing not to do something you don't do either.

I think you're a hero for giving blood regularly, no shade.

Right now, I think there would be a good rationale for having some procedures outdoors in the summer, with a degree of very well ventilated cover; safer, possibly more pleasant and less need for masks.

That could work for vaccinations, but I really don't know if it would be practical for giving blood.

your exhalations are a highly likely cause of harm

If that's wrong, what is the likelier cause of transmission?

It might be hard which breath from which person carried the infective load of virus. But it's the likeliest way for transmission in mainstream peer reviewed publications

@MurielSpriggs

I just saw this on my facebook feed. I didn't write it myself - it's a little bit American; but I do wonder what people would find in it to disagree with so very strongly.

Well I don't agree that they understand the meaning of the word "humility"

Otherwise it's not something you can disagree with. They are just explaining their reasoning for their ethical choices, and good for them (although if they wear that on a bit of string round their neck they will seem a bit show-off sanctimonious).

It's when people start using legal compulsion to force their ethical choices onto others that things get more complicated.

yes I think another word would be better than humility. And I don't think you could put that on a T shirt. Not in the UK.

However, people on here have called Chris Whitty humble and his attitude of wanting to do the right thing by other people with respect to masks really struck me, however you'd describe it.

If neither of those I silently judge you and if there are many I will either stop vaccinating or refuse to see people without masks unless they explain a very good reason

I'm sure they will keep masks in most Healthcare settings, but if not It won't be up to you personally will it?

I’ll be honest again @Lalalablahblahblah and say that I haven’t really thought about it but will continue to try and keep a safe distance from people outside of my friends/family circle. I had an issue with space invaders well before Covid so out of courtesy I’ve always done my best to keep a reasonable distance as it annoys me when people don’t show me the same courtesy. But then crux of it really is I’ve simply had enough. Wearing a mask for me has at times been unbearable. I have sensory issues and suffer from anxiety. Technically I was exempt from wearing them but I decided to do my bit. But really I only wore them as I couldn’t be arsed having to explain to people why I wasn’t wearing them. But seeing as now they’re not mandatory I won’t feel the the need to have to explain myself not one bit.

I am happy to put my hand up as selfish or a dick in a lot of posters eyes.

Masks make communication harder. How many times have you needed to speak louder or lean closer to a stranger to hear or be understood? I have had to on lots of occasions. I have avoided lots of places that require masks and am looking forward again to being out and about without one although my bank balance might not feel quite the same.

Masks don't protect the wearer, but others around you. Selfish stupidity to not still wear them in enclosed public spaces, even though the 'gvmnt' are relinquishing responsibility.

@Stuffin

I am happy to put my hand up as selfish or a dick in a lot of posters eyes.

Masks make communication harder. How many times have you needed to speak louder or lean closer to a stranger to hear or be understood? I have had to on lots of occasions. I have avoided lots of places that require masks and am looking forward again to being out and about without one although my bank balance might not feel quite the same.

I am deaf in one ear and masks are a bloody nightmare.

But if people who have worn them all along are given the green light not to wear them what do you expect? Especially when some of those people chose to wear them even though they were technically exempt. I’m sure a lot of people will continue to wear them and that’s great but please don’t judge people for choosing not to wear them when they are no longer a legal requirement.

A review of all the CDC data (American equivocal public health England) showed, at best, a very marginal benefit of mask wearing on transmission.

I won’t be bothering

@Rinoa86

I’ll be honest again *@Lalalablahblahblah* and say that I haven’t really thought about it but will continue to try and keep a safe distance from people outside of my friends/family circle. I had an issue with space invaders well before Covid so out of courtesy I’ve always done my best to keep a reasonable distance as it annoys me when people don’t show me the same courtesy. But then crux of it really is I’ve simply had enough. Wearing a mask for me has at times been unbearable. I have sensory issues and suffer from anxiety. Technically I was exempt from wearing them but I decided to do my bit. But really I only wore them as I couldn’t be arsed having to explain to people why I wasn’t wearing them. But seeing as now they’re not mandatory I won’t feel the the need to have to explain myself not one bit.

See this is social responsibility which I can respect, even though I will mask inside due to the CEV DC. If only people who hate masks were generally this considered in my area.

his attitude of wanting to do the right thing by other people with respect to masks really struck me, however you'd describe it

I don't think I'd say humble - highly ethical, deeply altruistic?

I have friends who are vegan, would not think of owning a car, tend to refuse lifts in cars, will not travel by plane or shop in supermarkets, all for similar reasons as that sign. I think mask-wearing will open up a new choice for those who are very concerned to minimize the suffering of others.

(I'm not doubting that there will be an additional attraction that it's mostly less trouble, and much more public .)

I think mask-wearing will open up a new choice for those who are very concerned to minimize the suffering of others

Oh god.

@SmidgenofaPigeon

Hell of a lot virtue signalling going on.

‘I wear a mask to protect others’ is going to be the new ‘stay the fuck home’

Oh please no

‘Stay the fuck at home’ was on my hate list second only to ‘act like you have covid’

@NiceViper

your exhalations are a highly likely cause of harm

If that's wrong, what is the likelier cause of transmission?

It might be hard which breath from which person carried the infective load of virus. But it's the likeliest way for transmission in mainstream peer reviewed publications

My point is that even pre-vaccines, at the height of the pandemic, the vast majority of people did not have Covid. Even fewer have it now, and most adults are vaccinated. So the comparison with smoking - where the person producing the harmful 'exhalations' is easily identified and can reasonably be asked to alter their behaviour for others' sake - is a poor one.