No masks after 19th July- despite the scientific consensus for them

[herecomesthsun]

I happened to notice that we had reached 1000 posts on the other thread - so I started a new one .

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

Not you personally, I was more posing a question in response to the other poster you cited.

Is personal comfort a good reason to discard a safety measure?

I was just pointing out that xenia was only talking about herself 😀

But as as mask wearing/seatbelt wearing random on mumsnet I don’t think personal comfort takes precedence over safety

@metacat

I believe the reason the UK/US have not fared well/high death toll is down to individualism.

We love our freedom, our right to question etc. And these are great things - to an extent.

Except not when faced with a global pandemic that requires a collectivist effort.

The government delayed lockdown/border controls because they believe in individualism.

The governments worldwide that have fared better imposed restrictions earlier and had a compliant population. E.g China.

No way do I want to live in a communist society - BUT - as an individualistic nation we NEED to recognise when altruism is important. I do think the majority have, but everyone is fed up with it now. I think the government are being swayed by popular opinion, rather than the science.

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer I agree!

@UndercoverToad

And wearing a mask in hospitals/clinics/pharmacy - I’d also add public transport and shops to that list - is not an arduous thing to do (I don’t buy all these claims that it is). I cannot see that the cost benefit analysis would be ‘it’s not worth it’ if it saves lives.

Lovely to know that you really don't accept how some people feel about wearing (and seeing others wearing) a mask.

I'd love to have been able to wear one, I tried, I really really tried, until a lovely pharmacist told me to take it off and put my lanyard on. At that point I was hitting myself in the head, rocking and scratching my arms (all stimming behaviours when I go in to sensory overload) and signs that I will be having a meltdown in the very near future.

Don't particularly find wearing a lanyard easy either, but it's easier than a mask.

Then thanks to my sensory issues I struggle with people wearing masks. They force me.to.look in to eyes and I don't do eye contact. It might look like I do, but in reality I'll be looking at the mouth. I also struggle to differentiate a single voice (who.is talking to me) in a noisy atmosphere, I cant concentrate on that voice very easily and distractions have to be removed. This is a million times worse when the speakers mouth is covered, I genuinely couldn't work.out what my vaccinator was.saying to me.when she went through the questions before the jab. Luckily I had someone to.support me and they helped first time round, second jab I was just nodding along.

[quote UndercoverToad]@metacat

I believe the reason the UK/US have not fared well/high death toll is down to individualism.

We love our freedom, our right to question etc. And these are great things - to an extent.

Except not when faced with a global pandemic that requires a collectivist effort.

The government delayed lockdown/border controls because they believe in individualism.

The governments worldwide that have fared better imposed restrictions earlier and had a compliant population. E.g China.

No way do I want to live in a communist society - BUT - as an individualistic nation we NEED to recognise when altruism is important. I do think the majority have, but everyone is fed up with it now. I think the government are being swayed by popular opinion, rather than the science.[/quote]
I agree that we are more individualistic generally, and it does bring benefits, as well as difficulty in a pandemic v say China or SK, but a few things

The WHO didn’t advise border closure early on and generally we were all following them rather intently at the beginning.

SAGE minutes from Feb last year are more relevant than popular opinion at the time and they felt that avoiding winter peak was key (but numbers were out)

I noticed on a chart once that Aus, U.K. and USA are most individualistic. It stuck with me as I’ve lived in all three. But you can be individualistic and act as Aus did so timing on the curve was more of a factor.

Also we have been compliant generally so we may be individualistic but pretty good with behaviour most of the time.

Ooooh should just clarify that I think there is a massive difference between minor discomfort like mine and the discomfort others who struggle to wear a mask for various reasons

Undercover Toad (how do I do the bold thing?)...

Totally agree. Rampant individualism, increasing over recent decades. Speak your truth etc.! The irony is, there's a point at which it kind of becomes self-destructive - on an individual and societal level. I do think we're seeing some of that here. Thinking aloud, and a fairly reductive - and provocative... - perspective, but... individualism validates the emotional response; the I want / I need. It's when you look outside yourself to consider the bigger picture that you're forced to acknowledge collective, shared needs, and higher order skills like empathy and abstract reasoning come into play. And some (certainly not all) people's responses to mask-wearing are scarily lacking in both of those, when they're such important tools to be able to weigh up all the pros and cons. (Thanks, "No such thing as society"-Maggie.)

@Whatever9999

Sorry to hear about how difficult it is for you, but I don't think that really is a factor in whether the rules should change? I'm assuming you're exempt, and that would continue even if masks remain compulsory.

[quote MurielSpriggs]@Whatever9999

Sorry to hear about how difficult it is for you, but I don't think that really is a factor in whether the rules should change? I'm assuming you're exempt, and that would continue even if masks remain compulsory.[/quote]
Apologies, I see it's also a problem with not being able to see the faces of others.

@Whatever9999

I fully agree what some should be exempt from wearing a mask —and I’m sorry to hear of your struggles.

From my personal experience, I am a carer for a vulnerable adult and had to pick up essential items from a supermarket as she is incontinent. Last week I had a group of adults, unmasked, clearly in my space, talking loudly, intimidating me as I tried to pay. I sat in the car, washed my hands and cried. Then I went on my way to help her on the toilet praying I hadn’t breathed anything in. If she caught it, it would finish her off right now. It is these people I have an issue with, not you.

@Metacat

Undercover Toad (how do I do the bold thing?)...

Totally agree. Rampant individualism, increasing over recent decades. Speak your truth etc.! The irony is, there's a point at which it kind of becomes self-destructive - on an individual and societal level. I do think we're seeing some of that here. Thinking aloud, and a fairly reductive - and provocative... - perspective, but... individualism validates the emotional response; the I want / I need. It's when you look outside yourself to consider the bigger picture that you're forced to acknowledge collective, shared needs, and higher order skills like empathy and abstract reasoning come into play. And some (certainly not all) people's responses to mask-wearing are scarily lacking in both of those, when they're such important tools to be able to weigh up all the pros and cons. (Thanks, "No such thing as society"-Maggie.)

I really don’t recognise this after last 18 months

Students at home for two terms, people complying, businesses struggling

It’s been very long and still most have complied

This was a good read:

www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-06-27/cultures-that-are-more-individualistic-can-be-more-altruistic-and-happier-too

@MarshaBradyo
@Metacat

yes we have been extremely compliant and have one of the highest covid 19 vax record in the world too, too compliant, so much that it is going to hard to force people back into normal life in a way that means the country can afford to pay the wages of nurses and doctors. It is a hard balance to get right for the state.

This is what infuriates me about the masks debate. It’s so selfish to say “I’m not worried about my risk so I won’t wear one”. When will people understand that you wear them not to protect yourself but out of consideration for those around you?

Since it is starting to look like the jab only partially protects you, I'll be continuing to wear one and avoiding any indoor place that doesn't mandate them.

@Xenia completely disagree. Look at China, Philippines - totally not advocating but that is compliance. Japan is compliance.

Our problem was confusion, delays and a complete lack of proactive behaviour from the government.

And we are by no means a naturally compliant society. Think we see the need for altruism until we’ve had enough!

And it needs to be a legal requirement because if not - as exemplified so beautifully on SM - many will no longer bother so it will lose all efficacy and meaning.
With rights and freedoms come responsibilities - a check & balance all too often ignored.

[quote UndercoverToad]@Xenia completely disagree. Look at China, Philippines - totally not advocating but that is compliance. Japan is compliance.

Our problem was confusion, delays and a complete lack of proactive behaviour from the government.

And we are by no means a naturally compliant society. Think we see the need for altruism until we’ve had enough![/quote]
No that is stronger enforcement in many cases

We complied by consent there wasn’t much making us comply. Ok schools and businesses were closed but we didn’t have much patrolling or active consequences

In the first lockdown behaviour started to change before it came into effect

Other tools made us comply - comms mostly

@MarshaBradyo stronger enforcement, but also a society that is used to collectivism.

I think the article I posted is good because it links individualism and altruism.

I think collectivism is more draconian. Altruism is more a choice?

[quote UndercoverToad]@MarshaBradyo stronger enforcement, but also a society that is used to collectivism.

I think the article I posted is good because it links individualism and altruism.

I think collectivism is more draconian. Altruism is more a choice?[/quote]
Yes probably I haven’t read it, a bit linked out!

I do question the idea we have been so bad this last year plus

So much sacrifice, so much funding, and compliance

I just don’t recognise some posts that call everyone selfish, or lacking resilience for that matter which is another one (not on this thread but often said)

We have been hit hard and people have done very well imo

You also have to factor in comorbidities though. We have a high rate of obesity and obesity related health issues that are risk factors for covid. I really don’t think it’s just about ‘lack of compliance’

@bumbleymummy I would say obesity and individualism are linked.

Well I think you accused me of individualism on the other thread and I’m certainly not obese

@bumbleymummy not you personally!! I’m individualistic too - I’m part of an individualistic society. I’m just trying to embrace my sense of altruism!

If you look at a world map of individualistic societies, I would also think there is a correlation with obesity within that society.