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Did it seem a bit odd that the tone of today's announcement was so sombre?

595 replies

secretintrovert · 05/07/2021 21:52

Bojo should have been doing his victory dance for freedom day! Instead the three of them looked as miserable as sin. There's trouble afoot methinks. This will be very very temporary

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 06/07/2021 11:47

[quote Thewiseoneincognito]@RedToothBrush keeping face masks and continuing a degree of social distancing is not lockdown if anything they’re a necessity more than ever given how rapidly the cases are increasing. The effect this is going to have on the psyche of those who are nervous of Covid, elderly, CEV and their family members is going to be immense, for many there can be no return to normal.

When the government eventually U turn on these ‘irreversible’ actions they will face a cataclysmic backlash from all sides.[/quote]
I don't actually disagree.

I think there is a problem here to a degree. However, we also have health anxiety at play where people will continue to socially distance at cost to their health in other ways, if its encouraged for too long too. We do need a way of drawing a line in the sand and saying that this isn't March 2020, vaccines have changed the dynamics of this and its unhealthy to stay shielding indefinitely in its own right for lots of reasons.

I also think the situation with masks may yet prove to be more complex than we think. See below twitter thread:

Adam Wagner @AdamWagner1
It really will be a huge change on 19 July if legal social distancing restrictions are lifted.

Will be the first time since 26 March 2020 that there have been no legal social distancing requirements - e.g. group socialising limits

That is 480 days

It does sound like some legal duties will remain:

1. Self-isolation for people who come into contact with a positive case, though it sounds like this will be different to current rules
2. Travel self-isolation and hotel quarantine

Interestingly:

"there will be no Covid certificate required to attend events or venues"

So domestic 'covid passports' are a non-starter (though they have been tried for big events this summer along with negative tests)

Face coverings to be guidance not law

Long-time followers will know govt has never been clear on difference between guidance & law, and why that should matter to people

It has fudged

Now it is left with the mess of convincing people to do things which are "guidance only"

People might reasonably ask why some important things (eg self-isolation) will remain law but other important things (eg face covering on public transport) will only be guidance.

I imagine the answer is as much to do with Tory backbenchers (masks have become totemic) as reason

Next question which will be on many businesses owners' minds is what to do about face coverings, tests, vaccine proof etc as entry requirements.

Just because the government is not making these things compulsory doesn't mean they are decoupled entirely from legal requirements...

Health and safety law might even require that certain businesses recommend face coverings or tests/vaccine certificates.

The truth is this is unknown territory - we have spent 480 days in government mandated land and now we are moving into 'use your discretion' land

E.g. a theatre which knows its audience is high Covid risk - e.g. elderly people - is opening up to maximum numbers.

Covid rates are high and getting higher.

If it leaves measures up to discretion of customers and there is a covid outbreak and someone dies, is it responsible?

E.g. a company knows that certain of its staff are very vulnerable to Covid and haven't been vaccinated. If it leaves measures to "personal responsibility" and there is a Covid outbreak, will it be responsible for the vulnerable employee getting Covid?

This will of course either be the end of social distancing requirements in law or the first major gap between two sets of legal social distancing requirements.

I suppose we will find out in the autumn/winter

I think the one that jumps out to me most, is the implications of the Equality Act and the need for businesses and public services to 'make reasonable adjustments' in certain situations.

I think its going to get complex and land in court fairly quickly.

The clinically vulnerable being forced to return to the office strikes me as one where we could see issues. And accessibility to do with public transport and whether sections of the public are in practice indirectly discriminated against because no one has to wear masks.

I don't know how it will play out, but I think there are some gaps in the position announced by government (though I understand the need to normalise for other reasons too) and I don't fully agree with the approach the government is taking.

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see some sort of a u-turn on public transport particularly during certain hours of the day - especially given where the majority of public opinion lies on this one.

CryingAtTheDiscotheque · 06/07/2021 11:53

I think the one that jumps out to me most, is the implications of the Equality Act and the need for businesses and public services to 'make reasonable adjustments' in certain situations.

Agree (and Adam Wagner's posts are always spot on imo)

In addition, if insurance is dependent on precautions/mitigations, businesses will have to continue with them (eg friend works on a TV series, nothing will change for them on 19 July in terms of social distancing, masks, etc - planning to continue as is for rest of the year).

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 06/07/2021 11:56

Really good post by RedToothBrush at 11:44.

Meruem · 06/07/2021 11:57

On a purely personal level, all I want to do is go abroad (to see family, not on a “jolly”). So the way things are looking, this unlocking makes that less likely, not more. I don’t want to go to pubs, so whether you can order at the bar or from a table makes no difference to me. Nothing will change in my life on the 19th.

On the flip side, if I’m not looking at it from a selfish point of view, lots of others do need things to open back up for various reasons.

I wouldn’t say I’m necessarily “afraid” as such. But I won’t be rushing back out there. My job was wfh pre covid and remains so. I always ordered groceries online anyway. And I’m not that bothered about socialising. I will continue to wear a mask in certain situations, like on the tube. Don’t know if it helps but I’m not one of those that hates wearing it so I don’t mind.

I’ve had both vaccines but it’s increasingly looking like that doesn’t make much difference! Ironically I only had them so I could travel. Otherwise I wouldn’t have. I suspect there will be back peddling at some point. Another winter lockdown wouldn’t surprise me. I hope we don’t need it but I’ve given up on anything BJ says.

Bunnyfuller · 06/07/2021 11:58

Covid isn’t finished, and it will carry on mutating as long and as much as it’s allowed to circulate.

It’s here to stay, but what it will become…

Who knows.

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2021 12:08

@Meruem

On a purely personal level, all I want to do is go abroad (to see family, not on a “jolly”). So the way things are looking, this unlocking makes that less likely, not more. I don’t want to go to pubs, so whether you can order at the bar or from a table makes no difference to me. Nothing will change in my life on the 19th.

On the flip side, if I’m not looking at it from a selfish point of view, lots of others do need things to open back up for various reasons.

I wouldn’t say I’m necessarily “afraid” as such. But I won’t be rushing back out there. My job was wfh pre covid and remains so. I always ordered groceries online anyway. And I’m not that bothered about socialising. I will continue to wear a mask in certain situations, like on the tube. Don’t know if it helps but I’m not one of those that hates wearing it so I don’t mind.

I’ve had both vaccines but it’s increasingly looking like that doesn’t make much difference! Ironically I only had them so I could travel. Otherwise I wouldn’t have. I suspect there will be back peddling at some point. Another winter lockdown wouldn’t surprise me. I hope we don’t need it but I’ve given up on anything BJ says.

Unlocking might push it back. I think give it 4 to 6 weeks and Delta will be something of an irrevelance from a UK black list point of view.

The issue will be more if you pass/fail a pcr to travel to and travel back due to airline regs rather than national entry requirements.

As soon as Delta is dominant everywhere the issue of the UK being 'an outlier' starts to cease to exist. Other countries are beginning to wake up to the limitations of restrictions and how sustainable they are in the face of Delta. Remember Alpha overwhelmed UK winter restrictions and required us to put in very very strict ones, stricter than anywhere else in Europe and they only just 'held the line' so to speak.

I think out cases will peak and crash much sooner than other places. I think the real risk in travelling is being caught out abroad tbh. Either through testing positive abroad, new variant issues which lead to red listing or through potential staff shortages on airline crew which I can see potentially happening.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 06/07/2021 12:08

Even Neil Ferguson now says that removing restrictions is justifiable

I thought he'd reportedly just said we could now see 200k cases a day?
He really can't seem to help himself, but there'll be thigh-rubbing over that one from certain posters Grin

It's perfectly clear that some will continue to sicken and die with Covid, but then sadly, some were always going to - the mistake was in imagining that everyone could be protected from everything, all the time

BigWoollyJumpers · 06/07/2021 12:11

ONS figures just out are showing Covid deaths flat, and excess deaths dropping. Good news there.

Lockdownbear · 06/07/2021 12:15

One comment about masks, many probably aren't wearing them properly or cleaning them as often as they should be.

How comfortable do people actually find them? I feel sorry for shop staff forced into them all day. And I positively avoid placed I don't need to be with them, ie I'm not taking my kids to museum type places. Kids aged 5 plus have to wear them in Scotland.

What's the logic in restaurants, you walk in, sit and remove it, so you spend more time without it than with it, polluting the air?

Kids being forced to wear them in schools can't be helpful in a classroom.

Young kids being asked to wear them on school transport - really 4 year olds. I can imagine many are dropped and stuff. I even have visions of young kids trying each others onEnvy.

People will analyse data from covid and the effect of restrictions for years. But you cannot look at it in isolation you have to look at the MH stats, children's development, effects on deaf people. Even not so hard of hearing struggle with the muffle from masks.

ClaudiaWankleman · 06/07/2021 12:17

I really detest the phrase 'follow the science'.

Science doesn't have any nuance, and it lacks the ability to bridge the gap between theory and practical application. It certainly is unable to provide answers for how we get out of this mess.

I very much believe in the 'if not now, then when?' approach.

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2021 12:18

And as I say about Delta becoming irrelevant it appears that Germany is removing the UK from their highest risk border control grouping. So if you are double vaccinated you won't need to quarantine from tomorrow. This will also apply to India and Nepal amongst others.

Big shift that one.

Doodlebug71 · 06/07/2021 12:18

@MrsJuliaGulia

I hope the CEV folk will be given adequate support so they can stay at home if that’s appropriate but I for one am delighted that life is going back to normal and people can get their livelihoods back on track.

I stopped wearing a mask on 21 June and off on holiday in 3 weeks. Won’t be wearing a mask on the plane either. And if I die of COVID I’ll have no one to blame but myself. I’m perfectly fine taking the risk though.

That's not just you you're putting at risk.
roguetomato · 06/07/2021 12:19

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Even Neil Ferguson now says that removing restrictions is justifiable

I thought he'd reportedly just said we could now see 200k cases a day?
He really can't seem to help himself, but there'll be thigh-rubbing over that one from certain posters Grin

It's perfectly clear that some will continue to sicken and die with Covid, but then sadly, some were always going to - the mistake was in imagining that everyone could be protected from everything, all the time

You really can't help yourself showing you have no sympathy for others who are in more unfortunate situation than you. grinning face - how appropriate while commenting some will continue to get sick and die.
beguilingeyes · 06/07/2021 12:23

I work in a Vaccination Centre and we have to wear them all day and we do 12 hour shifts. We wear the blue surgical ones.
Honestly you get used to it. Doesn't bother me at all now.

Beebityboo · 06/07/2021 12:26

I honestly find some of the ways posters talk about the risk to the disabled and vulnerable on this board to be borderline psychopathic. As a disabled person I never really understood just how little of a shit society gave about people like me until Covid. It's been difficult to come to terms with.

As for the restrictions lifting I don't know how I feel. I thought I would feel relief after being terrified for over a year, but mostly I just have this feeling of vague dread (already seeing more reporting on the Lambda variant Hmm ). I feel it's inevitable that my family will all catch covid now after being able to avoid it so far, and I can't keep my DC's from living a full and happy life on the chance covid will kill me. I live my life completely day to day now.

Feel completely devastated thinking about all those families out there with CEV children Sad.

Lockdownbear · 06/07/2021 12:29

@beguilingeyes

I work in a Vaccination Centre and we have to wear them all day and we do 12 hour shifts. We wear the blue surgical ones. Honestly you get used to it. Doesn't bother me at all now.
My guess is the surgical disposable ones are more comfortable than the cloth ones.

But I would also think that some people who buy their own disposable ones will be wearing them more than they should before they hit the bin, just the same as the cloth ones before they hit the washing machine.
I really question the hygiene of putting a mask (cloth or disposable) over your face that's been in a pocket and worn for many days. Even if its no more than an hour or so each day.

Lockdownbear · 06/07/2021 12:32

@Beebityboo people do care, but they also care about the deaf people, the people with MH issues who've been pushed too far by SD. The loneliness in those who've lost partners. The impact on kids struggling with speech and language.

Its not one verses the other their are many vulnerabilities.

Doodlebug71 · 06/07/2021 12:35

@Lockdownbear

One comment about masks, many probably aren't wearing them properly or cleaning them as often as they should be.

How comfortable do people actually find them? I feel sorry for shop staff forced into them all day. And I positively avoid placed I don't need to be with them, ie I'm not taking my kids to museum type places. Kids aged 5 plus have to wear them in Scotland.

What's the logic in restaurants, you walk in, sit and remove it, so you spend more time without it than with it, polluting the air?

Kids being forced to wear them in schools can't be helpful in a classroom.

Young kids being asked to wear them on school transport - really 4 year olds. I can imagine many are dropped and stuff. I even have visions of young kids trying each others onEnvy.

People will analyse data from covid and the effect of restrictions for years. But you cannot look at it in isolation you have to look at the MH stats, children's development, effects on deaf people. Even not so hard of hearing struggle with the muffle from masks.

The ones we wear are cotton. I made them using a dinner plate as a pattern. They look a bit like the recommended ones, and are snug-fitting. The rectangular surgical ones kept slipping off, so we needed something else. We have several each, and when they've been worn, they're washed.

There is no logic to wearing them to pubs/restaurants, then taking them off. That's a political decisions, made so that those places could re-open and make money. A single asymptomatic person in that space, and hey... a load more people infected.

Why do you think that kids wearing them in schools can't be helpful?

Or young kids on school transport? Are they immune, somehow?

IrmaFayLear · 06/07/2021 12:35

Well, @Beebityboo, I am cev too, and would I want things to continue to be locked down ? Absolutely not. BECAUSE I CARE ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE. I don't want young people and children's lives ruined to preserve me in aspic. I have seen graduate training scheme jobs axed, graduation ceremonies cancelled for ever, exams cancelled, students limited to an online university experience, social isolation and depression.

But, yeah! Let's throw everyone else plus the economy to the wolves so I can be saved! Me me me me. Just have a little compassion for others.

PhilSwagielka · 06/07/2021 12:36

@Beebityboo

I honestly find some of the ways posters talk about the risk to the disabled and vulnerable on this board to be borderline psychopathic. As a disabled person I never really understood just how little of a shit society gave about people like me until Covid. It's been difficult to come to terms with.

As for the restrictions lifting I don't know how I feel. I thought I would feel relief after being terrified for over a year, but mostly I just have this feeling of vague dread (already seeing more reporting on the Lambda variant Hmm ). I feel it's inevitable that my family will all catch covid now after being able to avoid it so far, and I can't keep my DC's from living a full and happy life on the chance covid will kill me. I live my life completely day to day now.

Feel completely devastated thinking about all those families out there with CEV children Sad.

COVID has definitely amplified how little society at large cares about the disabled. I'm lucky in that I don't have to shield, but other disabled people I know are not. #BeKind is an illusion and plenty of people have made it clear both here and elsewhere that the disabled and vulnerable are expendable. I include mental health in this; once things go back to normal, everyone will stop caring about mental health and tell those of of us who ARE mentally ill to be resilient, to suck it up, to stop being snowflakes, why can't we be more stoic like people in WW2 were.

Nobody will learn anything from this.

PhilSwagielka · 06/07/2021 12:37

@IrmaFayLear

Well, *@Beebityboo*, I am cev too, and would I want things to continue to be locked down ? Absolutely not. BECAUSE I CARE ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE. I don't want young people and children's lives ruined to preserve me in aspic. I have seen graduate training scheme jobs axed, graduation ceremonies cancelled for ever, exams cancelled, students limited to an online university experience, social isolation and depression.

But, yeah! Let's throw everyone else plus the economy to the wolves so I can be saved! Me me me me. Just have a little compassion for others.

Compassion goes both ways. And no, I don't want everyone to be locked down forever. It just all feels too soon and too fast.
ClaudiaWankleman · 06/07/2021 12:38

and I can't keep my DC's from living a full and happy life

There are many other people who work in theatres, pubs, bars, restaurants, nightclubs etc who are currently not earning enough (or at all) and unable to live full and happy lives.

Do you see the balance that has to be found?

Literarydevice · 06/07/2021 12:39

But I would also think that some people who buy their own disposable ones will be wearing them more than they should before they hit the bin, just the same as the cloth ones before they hit the washing machine.

A friend has been using the same disposable mask for about 3 months. It's in her bag or pocket and whipped out in shops etc. It can't possibly be anything but a hazzard by now. I doubt she will be the only one doing this either. The amount of people fiddling, adjusting and touching their mask also renders them pretty much useless I imagine

Lockdownbear · 06/07/2021 12:40

@Doodlebug71 do you honestly think kids are fully concentrating and paying attention with masks over faces. I think they muffle voices how does that work in a language class?

LOs on the school bus, would you honestly trust 4 year olds to handle them properly and not drop them before sticking them back over there mouths. Would you put one on that you'd dropped?

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