Did it seem a bit odd that the tone of today's announcement was so sombre?

[secretintrovert]

Bojo should have been doing his victory dance for freedom day! Instead the three of them looked as miserable as sin. There's trouble afoot methinks. This will be very very temporary

order-order.com/2021/07/08/piers-morgans-performative-fake-covid-fears-ignored-by-him-at-wembley/

I suspect that if Piers Morgan got ill (and any of the rich and famous wandering around mass gatherings), he'd have access to care and treatment not necessarily available to everyone. Perhaps, for example, regeneron.

I'm also confident that he'd have access to care sooner than your average Joe. Early, proactive, preventative treatment can make all the difference.

@Halloweenrainbow

My guess is that the vaccine won't be offered to all over 12s at this point, just those deemed CEV and CV. They're taking time to decide who should be on that list and it what order of priority.

They definitely need to include diabetes. Particularly over 40s.

21% of deaths (global data, so not just the UK) have been in people with diabetes.

The whole world needs vaccines and supplies are limited. President Biden is right. The best and quickest way out is a temporary vaccine patent waiver.

Sorry, multi tasking and misread HalloweenRainbow's post. I thought she was referring to the booster vaccines.

With children. As per the links I posted last night. The risks from Covid (including of Long Covid) significantly outweigh the tiny risk of a very rare almost always mild vaccine side effect.

But - it's a slightly irrelevant argument in the UK for now. We don't have enough supply anyway. We should, however, definitely, be trying to get clinically vulnerable over 12s (particularly CEV)asap.

And smoking doesn't actually give 'pleasure'. Most people are happier once they have stopped. What it does give Is temporary relief from the craving for nicotine. It isn't socially acceptable for people to comfort themselves by publicly relieving their cravings for heroine or crack cocaine in a public place, why should nicotine cravings be any different?

Good question. Why personal reasonability over masks in public (like you say, masks protect people around us), yet not the same for drugs? If anything you'd think it would be the other way round. Drugs and smoking definitely do give many people pleasure and stress relief (and help reduce obesity). They are also potential sources of huge tax revenue. Covid, however, is all of the bad but none of the good.

Either the government wants people to have personal responsibility, or not.

Also, how can people take any messaging around drugs and smoking seriously now? We've just been told by the government to expect possibly tens of thousands of deaths from Covid, and the government doesn't intend to take any mitigation measures. Erm, drugs and smoking are bad, why...?

@Doodlebug71

How many swallow and spout the Tory mantra that the long-term sick and disabled were in fact "scroungers" who should be made to work for their benefits?

Indeed. If you can get past the dodgy nurses employed by a 3rd party who report to DWP. Good luck with that, anyone with Long Covid.

They won't give a monkey's about anyone who is long term sick.

^ Talking about the nightmare that is a PIP assessment.

@mepop Totally - could be 7 to 9% of all children (even mild or asymptomatic cases). I am worried for Sept. Really concerned.

This will cause a lot of disability for a lot of families.

@theemperorhasnoclothes

@ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia

Agree with what you said. Spot on.

I can't quite believe the government are doing this. Even for them (and they set a high bar) it's off the bonkers scale.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/07/countries-should-not-relax-covid-rules-too-quickly-says-who-official-mike-ryan?fbclid=IwAR2ybJw_HGNKIadUdCf8N0v0m7m79TTmfx2lRPzwo0JnBb7W6ifOfWz0RpQ

WHO warns of ‘epidemiological stupidity’ of early Covid reopening

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57766717
Covid: Children's extremely low risk confirmed by study

In terms of death, there is little point in vaccinating kids who are not clinically vulnerable on the basis of this.

I await information on disability. But the argument is looking hard to make if you compare with risks of vaccinations.

I'd have to see something pretty compelling at this point to even consider it for my 6 year old.

I'd have to see something pretty compelling at this point to even consider it for my 6 year old.

Can't disagree.

I am also of the opinion that some countries are vaccinating 12 + to make up for the fact that so many eligible adults don't get vaccinated.

That's not to say it shouldn't be done and I do hope they introduce it for CEV children but I am still to be convinced. Thankfully I don't have a 12 year old so easier for me to say.

I shall be slammed for the next comment but here goes. I feel that a person who will refuse to wear a face mask in a public indoor space for vague reasons that it infringes on their personal Liberty could be compared to someone willing to get into a car to drive it having been drinking. Both will be taking risks with other peoples lives.

If the link between mask wearing and death is that strong, why did we invent a vaccine at astronomical cost? We could simply have stopped the virus circulating by mandating mask wearing.

@MorrisZapp

If the link between mask wearing and death is that strong, why did we invent a vaccine at astronomical cost? We could simply have stopped the virus circulating by mandating mask wearing.

Who said masks were the only preventative clinical intervention? The only foolproof natural method is to occupy your own island and have no outside contact. Other than that repeat vaccination along with all sensible risk mitigation measures (not necessarily double masked outdoors) may assist in defeating what a highly contagious airborne virus does best and that is to jump from human ENT system to another silently as if by osmosis. Or alternatively a full blown bio nuclear hazmat suit tends to help too but the pesky virus can still escape labs etc.

I was answering the last comment, stating that non mask wearing results in death the same way drink driving does.

@MorrisZapp

I was answering the last comment, stating that non mask wearing results in death the same way drink driving does.

Noted and agreed.

Everything has a risk element from steeping outside your front door and something dropping on your head to crossing the pavement and road let alone cycling without a safety helmet or driving without wearing a seat belt. All these helpful safety protocols assist in preventing dangers. The masks uses the same principle but apart from those used in hazardous construction sites for asbestos and dust avoidance, tend to mutually protect each other from cross contamination. And those who are trying to cheat a highly contagious virus by saying the magic words I am exempt tend to also not be exempt from any viral infection and onwards transmission. This is the fake exempt not legitimately diagnosed exempt disabled. Although the virus only discriminates against those with most exposure and least health privilege.

@RedToothBrush

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57766717 Covid: Children's extremely low risk confirmed by study

In terms of death, there is little point in vaccinating kids who are not clinically vulnerable on the basis of this.

I await information on disability. But the argument is looking hard to make if you compare with risks of vaccinations.

I'd have to see something pretty compelling at this point to even consider it for my 6 year old.

Same.

@MorrisZapp

If the link between mask wearing and death is that strong, why did we invent a vaccine at astronomical cost? We could simply have stopped the virus circulating by mandating mask wearing.

Because to defeat something like covid you need more than one mitigation - preferably lots.

And actually the head of the CDC says that masks are better than vaccines, but obviously both together are better than one of either alone. The reduction in risk is additive.

www.cnbc.com/2020/09/16/cdc-director-says-face-masks-may-provide-more-protection-than-coronavirus-vaccine-.html

This is the swiss cheese model of pandemic defence
"“Pretty soon you’ve created an impenetrable barrier, and you really can quench the transmission of the virus,” said Dr. Julie Gerberding, executive vice president and chief patient officer at Merck, who recently referenced the Swiss cheese model when speaking at a virtual gala fund-raiser for MoMath, the National Museum of Mathematics in Manhattan.

“But it requires all of those things, not just one of those things,” she added. “I think that’s what our population is having trouble getting their head around. We want to believe that there is going to come this magic day when suddenly 300 million doses of vaccine will be available and we can go back to work and things will return to normal. That is absolutely not going to happen fast.”
www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/health/coronavirus-swiss-cheese-infection-mackay.html

One thing alone - vaccines - just isn't going to be enough to get covid to manageable levels. It's pretty clear we need multiple mitigations.

But our leaders are too stupid to grasp this.

So instead of doing maximum risk reduction while still opening up (good ventilation can still happen pretty much everywhere at max capacity) we're not bothering. Which is just stupid, because sick people don't spend money and we know higher levels of illness damage the economy.

@theemperorhasnoclothes

One thing alone - vaccines - just isn't going to be enough to get covid to manageable levels. It's pretty clear we need multiple mitigations.

But our leaders are too stupid to grasp this.

So instead of doing maximum risk reduction while still opening up (good ventilation can still happen pretty much everywhere at max capacity) we're not bothering. Which is just stupid, because sick people don't spend money and we know higher levels of illness damage the economy.

As I said repeatedly it is a live survival of the fittest non government interventionist approach. It’s also apparently something along the lines of quasi herd immunity but real herd immunity requires more vaccination not a partially vaccinated older population only. Essentially anyone who can contract and pass on asymptomatic Covid tag probably needs some sort of double or triple and then periodic booster vaccination too. Apparently pets as well as young children have been known to have tested positive (when even) tested for Covid using an accurate PCR diagnostic professional grade laboratory test. Some may unfortunately be a Covid statistics as it’s already 0.1-0.2 million and counting already as others will be a long term drain on the NHS with life long Covid disabilities. All risk mitigation combined and taken seriously tend to help.

@theemperorhasnoclothes

One thing alone - vaccines - just isn't going to be enough to get covid to manageable levels. It's pretty clear we need multiple mitigations.

But our leaders are too stupid to grasp this.

So instead of doing maximum risk reduction while still opening up (good ventilation can still happen pretty much everywhere at max capacity) we're not bothering. Which is just stupid, because sick people don't spend money and we know higher levels of illness damage the economy.

Yes this.

Although, vaccines do seem to be working very well. In America.

America, 99.5% of deaths are in the unvaccinated.

America is using mostly mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna), and on 3 week dosing schedule.

UK government hasn't said which vaccine was given to UK double jabbed deaths.

Do we need to give mRNA booster to people who've had Astrazeneca?

That's very interesting and a little disturbing (since I've had AZ) @Tealightsandd

Is this information available for the UK? The double vaccinated are a relatively high percentage of recent deaths.

Although, vaccines do seem to be working very well. In America.

America, 99.5% of deaths are in the unvaccinated.

America is using mostly mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna), and on 3 week dosing schedule.

UK government hasn't said which vaccine was given to UK double jabbed deaths.

Do we need to give mRNA booster to people who've had Astrazeneca?

Do you genuinely not know why US are still doing OK?

Come back in a month or 2 and see if its the same situation in the US.........

@theemperorhasnoclothes

That's very interesting and a little disturbing (since I've had AZ) *@Tealightsandd*

Is this information available for the UK? The double vaccinated are a relatively high percentage of recent deaths.

I wouldn't worry. Head across to the Data thread and look at the recent study that had been published by PHE.

There are of course still a lot of uncertainty but I wouldn't write of AZ yet (I'm in the AZ club too).

Pfizer do want to introduce a booster in the US as soon as possible. There do seem to be some suggestions that the longer dosing schedule in UK works better than the 3 weeks in US.

There's a level of unknown at the moment.

In America, Delta cases are spreading in areas of low vaccine take up. It certainly looks like double jabbed are doing well.

Over here in the UK, I do think it would be helpful to have a vaccine breakdown for the double jabbed deaths.

With Astrazeneca. It seems that it takes longer to build up protection. So it might simply be a case of needing more time.

On a related note, in Germany Angela Merkel (who is a scientist, albeit not in virology) had AZ as her first dose, and her second was Moderna.

Studies have suggested AZ first dose with mRNA second provides stronger protection. So that might be another reason why it would be a good idea to give the vulnerable, particularly those who had AZ, a mRNA booster.