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Did it seem a bit odd that the tone of today's announcement was so sombre?

595 replies

secretintrovert · 05/07/2021 21:52

Bojo should have been doing his victory dance for freedom day! Instead the three of them looked as miserable as sin. There's trouble afoot methinks. This will be very very temporary

OP posts:
herecomesthsun · 06/07/2021 10:53

@HesterShaw1

And just to reiterate the well-worn phrase, for those in the laissez faire camp: my mask protects you. Your mask protects me. That’s why it is my business whether you wear it or not. You selfish fuckers.

It's easy to get angry and swear and insult. But is there any incontrovertible evidence to show that the type of masks people wear do actually provide the level of protection you seem confident of? That is, fabric over the mouth and nose, or loose disposable masks as opposed to the type which are mandated in Germany?

There is "compelling" data jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776536.

It wouldn't be ethical to try and infect people with covid, so randomised controlled trials haven't been done.

The balance of the argument is toward mask wearing.

Of course it's better if you wear high tech medical masks.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 06/07/2021 10:57

Even Neil Ferguson now says that removing restrictions is justifiable, so I don't agree it is politics ousting science.

The problem is that the exit wave can't be avoided, so you either do it now, in what is left of the summer. Or you get a similar sized wave in the winter. Or you try and slow it down until next spring. Either way, the wave is going to be about the same size.

those objecting to ending restrictions - Keir Starmer for one - are largely the same ones who demanded that we "follow the science". Well if Whitty and Vallance represent the science, we are following it, are we not? They both seemed to approve of Boris's plan in last night's briefing.

the issue is one of timing, not masks or one metre plus or anything. Unless one believes that we should keep restrictions forever, we must "unlock" at some point. As Boris said; if not now, then when? I'm tempted to wonder why people cannot understand this, but the government is doing a terrible job at explaining it.

claralara42 · 06/07/2021 10:58

Well if Whitty and Vallance represent the science, we are following it, are we not?

They don't though.

Ifitquacks · 06/07/2021 11:00

And those who say ‘follow the science’ seem to believe there is one scientific consensus, and there most definitely isn’t. Different scientists have differing views on this. What people seem to mean is ‘we need to follow the particular scientist I agree with’.

anniegun · 06/07/2021 11:01

Whitty and Valence said they would continue to wear masks. A succession of Tory ministers said they would stop. That sums their attitude!

CryingAtTheDiscotheque · 06/07/2021 11:01

if Whitty and Vallance represent the science, we are following it, are we not? They both seemed to approve of Boris's plan in last night's briefing.

Do you think so? I thought the opposite!

"If not now when" does seem the polar opposite of "data not dates" so there's been a change - I imagine because the Tory backbenchers have turned the screws...which in turn means that the lifting of restrictions may well not be "irreversible" (govt have already been making noises to that effect)...which I why I think BJ looked so glum/sombre yesterday.

MarshaBradyo · 06/07/2021 11:03

@claralara42

Well if Whitty and Vallance represent the science, we are following it, are we not?

They don't though.

Whitty does re using summer though doesn’t he?
PrincessNutNuts · 06/07/2021 11:03

Condemning thousands of people to death, illness, hospital admission, mechanical ventilation and long covid against all scientific advice is a somber business.

Boris Johnson likes to dress up in other men's work clothes. I'm surprised he didn't put a black cloth on his head like a judge sentencing someone to death.

By enacting this policy the government know how many people they are condemning.

Just remember in the coming weeks, they don't have to do this.

They're choosing to do this.

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2021 11:05

Again I think where we are at is a point where the public have unrealistic expectations and don't understand the situation.

We may have initially been persuing a zero covid strategy once a lockdown was announced. I think it became obvious by about 1st August last year when Manchester was put into higher levels of restrictions that was going to be near impossible. The first lockdown hadn't worked. Yes natural herd immunity may have been an early strategy but that certain was already off the cards by Easter.

It become clear by the first week in September that our capacity to trace and detect cases through testing wasn't sufficient. We couldn't force people to isolate / test if people didn't want to and we didn't have the ability to test all the people who wanted to be anyway.

At this point, the idea of zero covid was gone. People who have clinged to it haven't understood the problem.

It strikes me that the effectiveness of vaccines may have been misunderstood by the public at this juncture and who are now going, well whats the point of having being vaccinated if I still might get ill or even die. Its always been said that the vaccine wouldn't work in every case. The penny is dropping that, this might be a lot of people in practice.

The other thing I don't think a lot of people fully get is the health and socioeconomic issues (and subsequent knock effect to health again) from lockdown. We've almost conditioned ourselves to only see covid.

What I'm seeing now from scientists is a shift from covid being the sole issue, to it being balanced off against other health issues. And the public not understanding this.

Politically we are getting from labour talk of needing to continue restrictions whilst simulataneously refusing to properly acknowledge the link between economic hardship and covid. Throwing a few quid at people to isolate or to furlough them indefinitely, doesn't really help. There is a point where this becomes harmful - people sat at home doing nothing isn't good for them psychically or mentally. Avoiding covid is only sustainable for a finate period regardless of your political pursuasions.

I do think we are at the cross roads point where we have to have difficult conversations over people's expectations, what they thought the aim of restrictions was and the degree to which governments can reasonably stop the tide. Ultimately I think its a little like King Knut sat on the beach, and its only just beginning to dawn on a lot of people that once vaccinations reach a certain level, beyond that intervention by the authorities can only carry on to a certain degree and in the most extreme situations

Where that cut off point is, is the only real debate.

Masks I would have liked to have continued regulated. My suspicion is you would be unwise to bin them all though.

The heavy hints in the press conference were there - they would keep things advisory as much as possible and would strengthen these advisories if needed but they reserved the right to bring in restrictions again if circumstances dictated it. From the mouth of Johnson himself.

But again these restrictions are only going to be able preventing the collaspe of the health service not preventing death.

Mistakes have been made on this by just about every government in the world. We have had some real strengths and weaknesses - like other countries. But ultimately we don't live in isolation. What mistakes were made in China rippled, then Italy, then the UK, then India and so on. Even Australia which has performed really well in the eyes of many is now in a really dangerous situation because of failures.

The public expectation that our government should be infaliable in the face of such unknowns is off the scale bonkers. Yet there are plenty of people who fall into this bracket.

How we got here is one for the public enquiry years done the line. It makes no difference to the situation we are now in.

How much is realistic to protect the clinical vulnerable - without producing even more clincally vulnerable? Thats the issue. Restrictions themselves run the risk of potentially creating more vulnerable. Its not just covid that can do harm.

We have to balance these things. And I think at a time where binary thought processes are amplified and promoted by social media and critical thinking is in crisis and not encouraged as much as it should be, I don't think enough people fully understand whats going on and why / how / what we need to balance.

We are stuck in a land of one dimensional thinking lacking in nuance.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 06/07/2021 11:05

@anniegun

Whitty and Valence said they would continue to wear masks. A succession of Tory ministers said they would stop. That sums their attitude!
Yes and neither Whitty nor Valance said that mask wearing should continue to be compulsory. They said that there were certain situations where they would choose to wear one. And that is absolutely fine.
RedToothBrush · 06/07/2021 11:06

Also this view is too prevelant

"I am following the science and trust Chris Whitty and Patrick Valance until I get to the point where what they are saying doesn't match my beliefs about covid".

Quartz2208 · 06/07/2021 11:11

@anniegun

Whitty and Valence said they would continue to wear masks. A succession of Tory ministers said they would stop. That sums their attitude!
But also I think really does show what the issue is and why the Government did what they did.

The conservative ideals are very much based on free enterprise and minimal intervention and I suspect the feeling was very much that trying to keep these in would cause a tory party rebellion and potentially not go through. So politically it was decided to remove the legal obligation to wear masks.

But that came alongside I think a clear message of free choice and that the correct and right choice is to both wear them and to allow business to very much make them mandatory (airlines for example already have).

I think on balance it is a calculate risk that actually most people will choose to wear masks sensibly and make their own decisions as to whether it is appropriate or not

CryingAtTheDiscotheque · 06/07/2021 11:11

Yes and neither Whitty nor Valance said that mask wearing should continue to be compulsory

W & V were very clear that this sort of decision was for the politicians not for them as advisers, which is why they did not venture any view about it!

hashbrowntag · 06/07/2021 11:12

"But if we are going to have another surge then it’s probably best it’s over well before winter sets in"

"
Delta took 2 months to reach the peak in India. We're already a few weeks into rising cases.

So if you let it run now, in the summer, it will be burning itself out by the time winter hits."

"It is now or never, and the economy can't stay in shutdown much longer."

BoredZelda

“Boris said, ‘If not now, then when?’

When we have reached the threshold of people doubly vaccinated which has been shown to make a difference elsewhere. And we are really close to that.“

Agree with the above posts.

I can't help but think that (very) basically the thought process is..

"Let them out to play (and spend money).. Cases rise but warmer weather hopefully equals less serious illness. Therefore Delta variant rapidly peaks well before Autumn. If Autumn/Winter does turn out to be bad, at least they had fun and spent lots of money in the summer."

CryingAtTheDiscotheque · 06/07/2021 11:16

I can't help but think that (very) basically the thought process is..

"Let them out to play (and spend money).. Cases rise but warmer weather hopefully equals less serious illness. Therefore Delta variant rapidly peaks well before Autumn. If Autumn/Winter does turn out to be bad, at least they had fun and spent lots of money in the summer."

Yes, I think there's a lot of truth in that! About as far from the promised "cautious but irreversible" lifting as it is possible to get.

Thewiseoneincognito · 06/07/2021 11:16

@RedToothBrush keeping face masks and continuing a degree of social distancing is not lockdown if anything they’re a necessity more than ever given how rapidly the cases are increasing. The effect this is going to have on the psyche of those who are nervous of Covid, elderly, CEV and their family members is going to be immense, for many there can be no return to normal.

When the government eventually U turn on these ‘irreversible’ actions they will face a cataclysmic backlash from all sides.

Spudlet · 06/07/2021 11:16

@RedToothBrush Yep, I agree. I think generally (not just regarding Covid), there is a prevailing view that the government should be somehow infallible (my autocorrect thought that should say inflatable, which is probably more a fringe view), which ignores the fact that a government is a collection of individuals, and as human and fallible as the rest of us. Oddly, this belief seems to co-exist with the belief that all governments are made up of fools who live in ivory towers and have no clue about the real world. Some people even manage to hold both these views at once.

No government is going to come out of this one with a 100% record, least of all the uk government, but they won’t be alone in this.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 06/07/2021 11:17

Really thoughtful thread on Twitter from Prof Dingwall, one of the eternally sensible members of the Government advisory groups, talking about face masks after July 19th:

twitter.com/rwjdingwall/status/1412330340346126337?s=20

tl:dr - he's stopping wearing one on the 19th in support of all the people who have been forced to wear one throughout the pandemic even though they have very good reasons not to. Probably worth reading, especially by the "It's just a bit of cloth" crew.

I think it raises a wider point as well - the last 15 months have been pretty traumatic, for everyone, and endlessly polarising, with many internet characters typed out in arguments between the Zero COVID loons on one extreme all the way through to the Smiley/5G/WEF nutters on the other. Now it's looking like we are coming to the end of the restrictions and other general silliness, it's probably a good time to take stock and be a bit less combative. For instance I will be dropping any pretence of wearing a mask on the 19th however if someone wants to continue that is fine by me.

ginghamstarfish · 06/07/2021 11:19

Scary, but as even formerly sensible people seem to be giving up wearing masks etc etc, they are bowing to the inevitable. Looks like we will now just be 'living with it' despite consequences for the NHS. I will still be wearing a mask when in close contact with others, distancing where possible. If we had ALL worn masks right from the beginning last year, surely many businesses and events could have carried on, people wouldn't have lost their jobs, the NHS wouldn't have been overwhelmed, the government wouldn't be spending billions we don't have on furlough/support payments.
I find it hard to believe so many find wearing a small piece of cloth over the face such an unbearable ordeal. Have often thought we should do it during flu season as is done in many Asian countries, when in close contact with others.

MarshaBradyo · 06/07/2021 11:24

@AlecTrevelyan006

Really thoughtful thread on Twitter from Prof Dingwall, one of the eternally sensible members of the Government advisory groups, talking about face masks after July 19th:

twitter.com/rwjdingwall/status/1412330340346126337?s=20

tl:dr - he's stopping wearing one on the 19th in support of all the people who have been forced to wear one throughout the pandemic even though they have very good reasons not to. Probably worth reading, especially by the "It's just a bit of cloth" crew.

I think it raises a wider point as well - the last 15 months have been pretty traumatic, for everyone, and endlessly polarising, with many internet characters typed out in arguments between the Zero COVID loons on one extreme all the way through to the Smiley/5G/WEF nutters on the other. Now it's looking like we are coming to the end of the restrictions and other general silliness, it's probably a good time to take stock and be a bit less combative. For instance I will be dropping any pretence of wearing a mask on the 19th however if someone wants to continue that is fine by me.

I agree. Now is the time to stop getting so angry at each other’s choices imo

I’m on the fence re masks and will see how I feel on any day and go from there.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 06/07/2021 11:29

@tootiredtospeak

He isn't daft I bet he is predicting this uproar about masks so he can tell us in another 2 weeks they are here to stay on public transport and in shops as he has listened to the public and that's what we want.
Tbf the whole thing is a dead cat to avoid people focusing on voting through the problematic clauses in the police & crime Bill.

You do have to admire him slightly for it. Standing on tv to tell everyone you are giving them their freedom while voting to remove some of those freedoms is absolute genius.

herecomesthsun · 06/07/2021 11:37

re Prof Dingwall - that's sanctimonious nonsense.

If he doesn't have to wear a mask, that's his choice.

I don't wear one the vast majority of the time either, only when the situation indicates it (cf Whitty's comments last night)

Dressing it up as a statement is pretentious.

Mask wearing is, if anything, a courtesy to those around you, the more so if not legally compulsory.

I wouldn't judge someone not wearing a mask as there might be good reasons why they can't.

But far better to protect the health of those around you, for example if you're in a crowd indoors, if you possibly can.

Mind you he is a sociologist and not actually a doctor, so perhaps we should expect the woolliness that's his main contribution to covid discussions.

Wheresmybiscuit3 · 06/07/2021 11:44

@RedToothBrush

Again I think where we are at is a point where the public have unrealistic expectations and don't understand the situation.

We may have initially been persuing a zero covid strategy once a lockdown was announced. I think it became obvious by about 1st August last year when Manchester was put into higher levels of restrictions that was going to be near impossible. The first lockdown hadn't worked. Yes natural herd immunity may have been an early strategy but that certain was already off the cards by Easter.

It become clear by the first week in September that our capacity to trace and detect cases through testing wasn't sufficient. We couldn't force people to isolate / test if people didn't want to and we didn't have the ability to test all the people who wanted to be anyway.

At this point, the idea of zero covid was gone. People who have clinged to it haven't understood the problem.

It strikes me that the effectiveness of vaccines may have been misunderstood by the public at this juncture and who are now going, well whats the point of having being vaccinated if I still might get ill or even die. Its always been said that the vaccine wouldn't work in every case. The penny is dropping that, this might be a lot of people in practice.

The other thing I don't think a lot of people fully get is the health and socioeconomic issues (and subsequent knock effect to health again) from lockdown. We've almost conditioned ourselves to only see covid.

What I'm seeing now from scientists is a shift from covid being the sole issue, to it being balanced off against other health issues. And the public not understanding this.

Politically we are getting from labour talk of needing to continue restrictions whilst simulataneously refusing to properly acknowledge the link between economic hardship and covid. Throwing a few quid at people to isolate or to furlough them indefinitely, doesn't really help. There is a point where this becomes harmful - people sat at home doing nothing isn't good for them psychically or mentally. Avoiding covid is only sustainable for a finate period regardless of your political pursuasions.

I do think we are at the cross roads point where we have to have difficult conversations over people's expectations, what they thought the aim of restrictions was and the degree to which governments can reasonably stop the tide. Ultimately I think its a little like King Knut sat on the beach, and its only just beginning to dawn on a lot of people that once vaccinations reach a certain level, beyond that intervention by the authorities can only carry on to a certain degree and in the most extreme situations

Where that cut off point is, is the only real debate.

Masks I would have liked to have continued regulated. My suspicion is you would be unwise to bin them all though.

The heavy hints in the press conference were there - they would keep things advisory as much as possible and would strengthen these advisories if needed but they reserved the right to bring in restrictions again if circumstances dictated it. From the mouth of Johnson himself.

But again these restrictions are only going to be able preventing the collaspe of the health service not preventing death.

Mistakes have been made on this by just about every government in the world. We have had some real strengths and weaknesses - like other countries. But ultimately we don't live in isolation. What mistakes were made in China rippled, then Italy, then the UK, then India and so on. Even Australia which has performed really well in the eyes of many is now in a really dangerous situation because of failures.

The public expectation that our government should be infaliable in the face of such unknowns is off the scale bonkers. Yet there are plenty of people who fall into this bracket.

How we got here is one for the public enquiry years done the line. It makes no difference to the situation we are now in.

How much is realistic to protect the clinical vulnerable - without producing even more clincally vulnerable? Thats the issue. Restrictions themselves run the risk of potentially creating more vulnerable. Its not just covid that can do harm.

We have to balance these things. And I think at a time where binary thought processes are amplified and promoted by social media and critical thinking is in crisis and not encouraged as much as it should be, I don't think enough people fully understand whats going on and why / how / what we need to balance.

We are stuck in a land of one dimensional thinking lacking in nuance.

Spot on here I feel
roguetomato · 06/07/2021 11:44

I think there's nothing confusing about the tone. It's a hard choice that gov had to make, end of restriction is no where near the announcement of victory over covid.
There are many people who is still vulnerable to covid and they may die. But the society need to take balanced measure to open up eventually.
Just hope people will take sensible precautions when they can to prevent spread while enjoying the freedom.

BigWoollyJumpers · 06/07/2021 11:44

@ginghamstarfish

Scary, but as even formerly sensible people seem to be giving up wearing masks etc etc, they are bowing to the inevitable. Looks like we will now just be 'living with it' despite consequences for the NHS. I will still be wearing a mask when in close contact with others, distancing where possible. If we had ALL worn masks right from the beginning last year, surely many businesses and events could have carried on, people wouldn't have lost their jobs, the NHS wouldn't have been overwhelmed, the government wouldn't be spending billions we don't have on furlough/support payments. I find it hard to believe so many find wearing a small piece of cloth over the face such an unbearable ordeal. Have often thought we should do it during flu season as is done in many Asian countries, when in close contact with others.
I've said it before, and it is worth repeating here.

You can have all the protections available. Isolated, shielded, no visitors, full PPE, regular testing. In DM's care home they had all that. Covid arrived in Jan and many of the residents died. Wearing masks at the beginning of last year would have achieved nothing.

RedToothBrush You post upthread was spot on.