Did it seem a bit odd that the tone of today's announcement was so sombre?

[secretintrovert]

Bojo should have been doing his victory dance for freedom day! Instead the three of them looked as miserable as sin. There's trouble afoot methinks. This will be very very temporary

Tea they did buy more Pfizer so who knows!

As Wakeup says there is a really reassuring graph that Mrex has posted re AZ.

@Tealightsandd please dont post things that scare people about AZ without any data to back it up. The fact that in the US it is the unvaccinated that are dying and not in the UK has nothing to do with the vaccination programme itself and more to do with the age breakdown.

Quartz I'm posting about scientific and medical studies. I also add in my own speculation and questions - based on the balance of probability, evidence, and data. Which I've made clear are my own personal speculation and questions. It's very important to be able to ask questions in a free democratic society.

Like I've said before, AZ takes longer to build up protection. So it might just need more time.

www.itv.com/news/2021-06-29/covid-two-oxford-vaccines-produce-low-level-of-antibodies-against-delta-variant-study-shows

However, if, and I emphasise the if it is the case that it's not as good as the mRNA vaccines, than people have the right to know, to understand their risk levels. And they should be offered a Pfizer or Moderna booster (when we have more supply).

As I've said, in the meantime AZ is still good.

Also as I've said before. Germany's Angela Merkel had AZ for her first dose and Moderna as her second.

Studies have suggested that a mix vaccine approach might provide stronger protection.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9749989/amp/Germany-recommends-mixing-Covid-vaccines-saying-gives-significantly-superior-immune-response.html

@Quartz2208

As Wakeup says there is a really reassuring graph that Mrex has posted re AZ.

@Tealightsandd please dont post things that scare people about AZ without any data to back it up. The fact that in the US it is the unvaccinated that are dying and not in the UK has nothing to do with the vaccination programme itself and more to do with the age breakdown.

I hope @Tealightsandd continues to post, good and bad news.

What I find TRULY scary is the lack of information in this country - the lack of data on schools, the lack of information and information that is suppressed. The frightening insistence that we must never consider studies that might indicate problems - the fact that the side effects of AZ took so much longer for this country to accept due to this unwillingness to face facts. People may have died as a result of the insistence that bad news be suppressed.

If AZ is less effective than Pfizer or Moderna (and it looks to me from the data that it likely is, plus carries a risk to me as a 40 something woman that the other vaccines don't) I'd like to be fully informed. I've had the full AZ vaccine course anyway, but if I lived in Australia or New Zealand or somewhere where the risk / benefit balance was different - because of lower covid infections in the community - then I might have decided to wait.

I also knew not to wait if I developed a persistent headache, or bruises under the skin, and to see a doctor. Not just think dismissively 'no, all the 'scare stories' about AZ were wrong and people shouldn't have talked about it'.

It seems to be we have a real problem as a society if we can't face facts.

@theemperorhasnoclothes I never said she shouldnt post I said please post with the links and the data to back it up because otherwise it can be scary.

Because you are right - we need the facts and the data and then a discussion from that but with the original source there so we can all make our own interpretations from them. But with good and bad news I think you need sources

Like I've said before, AZ takes longer to build up protection. So it might just need more time.

This is exactly what I mean - @Tealightsandd it is not you saying at all. If you are making statements please show what you are basing them on you may have read something so simply link it. We should be discussing them I completely agree and you should be saying what you think but unless you link it is difficult to respond.

Most post with an agenda and a preconceived data bias and therefore rightly interpret data differently (which is why personally I hate THE data and THE science approach because there is no THE only a set of data which can be interpreted differently). So seeing it enables the discussuin

What I find TRULY scary is the lack of information in this country - the lack of data on schools, the lack of information and information that is suppressed. The frightening insistence that we must never consider studies that might indicate problems - the fact that the side effects of AZ took so much longer for this country to accept due to this unwillingness to face facts. People may have died as a result of the insistence that bad news be suppressed.

FFS that really is not the case. I am not saying everything is out there and there could have been better data around schools, but so much of what we know about Covid and mutations etc has come out of the UK. The ONS sampling, the genomic testing, ZoE app.

I think sometimes people really need to take a long hard look at things and try and dispense with there anti UK bias. I'm not a fan of the govt, I never have been, but I respect the scientists.

Az can be quite easily explained.

1/ there was so much bad press about AZ in other countries that it was always going to be the case that any issues were going to be discovered early doors. If the same issues had been with Pfizer it would have taken so much longer for them to react.

2/ the UK were mainly vaccinating older people when some countries decided they couldn't give az to them due to lack of data for older people. Problems were highlighted elsewhere 1st due to the demographic being vaccinated.

3/ JVCI decided against AZ for under 40s because there were so few infections in the community and it was less risky for them to have Covid than vaccine. I wonder what that ratios would be now- i wouldn't be surprised if its different now.

None of the above is rocket science. You just have to try and be objective in your opinions.

The data we receive is by no means perfect. There are a lot of grey areas and of course we all want answers to questions before even the scientists have researched it, but you are living in cloud cookoo land if you thing other countries do not have the same issues.

Oh and BTW, AZ has saved thousands and thousands of lives and will continue saving many more.

Agree with PPs that information is not shared openly or effectively. MSM are quite slow off the mark with information that is available. For example, today many UK outlets are running stories on the Pfizer & Moderna heart inflamation issue as if this is new information. It's been known about for months (small risk, not trying to scare anyone). Similarly, there has been little effort to emphasise the change in symptoms associated with infection with the Delta variant.

@Halloweenrainbow

Agree with PPs that information is not shared openly or effectively. MSM are quite slow off the mark with information that is available. For example, today many UK outlets are running stories on the Pfizer & Moderna heart inflamation issue as if this is new information. It's been known about for months (small risk, not trying to scare anyone). Similarly, there has been little effort to emphasise the change in symptoms associated with infection with the Delta variant.

It's been suspected for a while.

It is now confirmed.

2 different things.

If anything, there is too much information. The problem we have is that we seem to have two firm ‘camps’ interpreting it with an obvious bias. We need clear, impartial interpretation of data sources.

Why do we think some countries are already vaccinating 12 + (when there overall rates of vaccination are much lower than here)

Are they relying on children to reach their herd immunity?

I have seen so many posts on here saying 'my kids are fully vaccinated in X country where my 30 year old cousin in UK is still waiting for his 2nd dose'

While that's all great at a family level, often the rates of vaccination in X country are significantly lower than here. Why are they vaccinating youngsters when so many over 50s are still unvaccinated?

Wakeupin2022
"It's been suspected for a while.

It is now confirmed.

2 different things."

True but if people aren't made aware of the concerns and investigations then they can't make an informed choice (again, not trying to put people off, I've had both my jabs!).

Wrong thread

A lot of scientists in the UK are complaining about the lack of data and lack of studies coming from the UK government.

E.g. Christina Pagel and Kit Yates who were repeatedly asking for schools data that simply wasn't being released or perhaps even collected. One of many examples here from May (their twitter accounts include many such discussions) twitter.com/chrischirp/status/1396972891544109064?lang=en

There were studies done on transmission of covid in schools that still haven't reported. E.g. this one which started in Sept 2020 - I mean at this rate all the kids will get covid so what's the fucking point? The only results I can see are about attitudes to testing in schools and parental/ child perception. What's happened to the covid test data? They must have some by now. commins.org.uk

Supposedly
'CoMMinS aims to give us an understanding of Covid-19 infection dynamics centred around school pupils and staff and onward transmission to family contacts' so where's the data on this? They've been doing it until September. Isn't it pointless if schools have had to struggle on alone all year with no results? And why are the results on perceptions and attitudes available but not on actual infection and transmission?

In a pandemic, if you wait for incontrovertible, peer reviewed scientific papers you'll always be behind the curve and miss your opportunity to act decisively - that's when the precautionary principle comes in but that has been totally ignored by the government. E.g. Travellers from India being allowed into the country in massive numbers and many not having to isolate on entry during the peak of their Delta wave without really any justifiable reason. E.g. why were cruise ship workers allowed into the country without having to quarantine on arrival and travel on a bus across the country? www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/cruise-liner-workers-india-stopped-5374550?fbclid=IwAR3TU0MAabD-F3NAfqEt2IIjJp58MIMI9fhTmatVRbAceDSwTph-XqufU0g

I agree that UK scientists are amazing, there have been some amazing and innovative things done but many have been despite the government rather than because of it. And many scientists feel frustrated and their expert opinion dismissed. The government seems to have sought out those scientists who do not represent the broad scientific consensus to advise them.

The editor of the Lancet says this
twitter.com/allthecitizens/status/1413599090680770566
"What we have is a government that is pursuing an ideologically driven commitment to force the population to accept a level of mortality and disability" also says "This is not about data, it is about ideology"

The only possible explanation I can think of why the Commins study hasn't released the data it's been collecting SINCE SEPT 2020 is if it doesn't support the politics. It's funded by the government as far as I can tell.

Halloween indeed! That is critically important and its what the yellow card scheme is for and other countries will have similar.

But many reports are not linked to the vaccine and they need to review the data rather than rushing to conclusions. However it is also good to raise awareness that it could be an issue to allow people to make informed decisions.

I got my 1st AZ at a time when there was a suggestion there were rare clotting issues. The nurse explained to me at the time and I accepted the risk. Others probably didn't accept the extremely small risk.

I've agreed the data around schools is lacking. It's in print above.....

My post isn't directed at any particular poster.

But the scientists and the government are not the same, and it's not 'anti-UK bias' to say our government has been totally shit at handling the pandemic.

I do think the government has sought to suppress data at times in various ways and where they fund the studies they have huge levers to suppress the data. One public body which seems to have been robust for the most part (perhaps not always) at resisting this has been the ONS.

@theemperorhasnoclothes

My post isn't directed at any particular poster.

But the scientists and the government are not the same, and it's not 'anti-UK bias' to say our government has been totally shit at handling the pandemic.

I do think the government has sought to suppress data at times in various ways and where they fund the studies they have huge levers to suppress the data. One public body which seems to have been robust for the most part (perhaps not always) at resisting this has been the ONS.

Yet you quote me.......

I am sure the government has tried to suppress some data.

I am not supporters of how they have handled the pandemic although I think whoever was in charge would have failed miserably. I do not believe that Sturgeon or other UK leaders have done much better!

But for me the issue I have is that often people compare to other countries without actually looking at the reasons for the differences.

Your comments re AZ is a perfect example of that.

That's what I meant when is said Anti UK bias. You need to look and understand why and not just automatically assume it's because that country is better and collecting better data!

The govt do have to take all areas into consideration, not just Covid. Many scientists can only see Covid as the problem because that's all they deal with. They suggest lots of wonderful things for schools that we would all love but often are completely impracticable.

I do think the UK govt have badly managed many aspects of the pandemic. I was livid at the imported cases from India at the beginning although it may actually prove to be a blessing in disguise if we do get through this wave without significant hospitalizations / deaths.

My child is taking part in the COMMINS study. He's been tested in school a few times throughout the school year. Not once have his year group been sent home following a round of COMMINS testing. Though this may be because they haven't been in school much to be tested!

The year group had 2 self-isolations between Oct and Dec so missed 1, maybe 2 tests then. They were all home Jan til 8th March of course. The July test was cancelled because the year group were already home self-isolating again. So maybe COMMINS have collected less data than they were hoping for?