Thoughts on the non-vaccinated!

[UnluckyMe]

Why have people been so critical of those who have chosen not to be vaccinated against covid 19?

I've read all sorts of comments about those, like me, who chose not to be vaccinated calling us selfish, uneducated and so on. There seems to be a massive lack of respect for what others choose to do with their body and I'm just curious as go why people feel the need to make comments about it. There are obviously many who don't and I do acknowledge that, my post is more directed to thoughts on why the other side do (feels very playground bully like to me).

The way I see it is everyone has a choice - respect that choice and move on with life rather than throwing insults at one another or dwell on something out of your own control.

I'd also like to confirm i do not own tin foil hat, expect the end of days soon or believe everyone will drop dead in 6 months / will transform into magneto from X-Men (all those coins sticking to people's arms!)

I have followed the rules down to a tee but have just chosen not to be vaccinated at present. Maybe I will change my mind, maybe I won't 🤷‍♀️ who knows.

I am genuinely curious - I read on another post "all vulnerable and sensible people have had the jab" as a comment which riled me a bit too! I like to think I'm pretty sensible but clearly this Mumsnetter thinks otherwise 😆😆

@MarianGW Ive read A State of Fear too. Unfortunately though are many who think they can review it without reading it.

It may be time some of you think about your social responsibilities

Wonder where all the social responsibility was when 72 people perished in a tower block fire.
Why wernt people prepared to wear masks before it was de rigeur to virtue signal about it on social media to protect people like DH who has COPD from the flu

My social responsibility is fine thanks. Ive been a social housing campaigner for many years. Pre Grenfell. When the fire happened i was shocked but not surprised. Yet it wasnt long before "society" went back to the default setting.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3702945-Gardens-not-accessible-to-social-tenants

So dont give me that shit about social responsibility and community. Because it only seems to count when its Covid related.

@Aldilogue I completely agree with you

@Wimpund21

lmagine if everyone took the me-centric view of “I don’t really want to have it, it’s personal choice & I'm allowed to be free of criticism in exercising that choice.” Well no, not really

I don't expect to be free of criticism AT ALL. I'm a big girl with thick skin, I'm perfectly willing to accept I'll be criticised and I find other people's perspectives interesting. I'm not arrogant enough to be convinced I'm right and all those vaccinated are wrong...I can only trust my own instincts and research right now. Time will tell.

What I, or anyone else who chooses to decline the vaccine, shouldn't have to accept is being told that we're despised. That we're selfish c*nts who want to kill people's granny's.
That hopefully we'll be refused NHS treatment if we get Covid.
That hopefully we'll be declined a ventilator if we need one.
That we should be forcibly injected or lose our jobs and freedoms.
That we are scum.
Uneducated.
Not worthy of respect.
Shameful.
Should be ostracised by family and friends.

All of these I've read, most of them on this very thread.

No one should have to accept being spoken to like this for making the same bodily autonomous choice that the vaccinated made - albeit a different one.

It does seem like hysteria to me, at times cult-like in its extremism.

I find the acceptance of this almost more worrying than the vaccine itself tbh. The only thing that elicits such a strong response in the general population is very successful propaganda. Which is terrifying on a societal level.

Well considering the alternative is if we all took your attitude would be continuous high level of deaths and severe illness, NHS not coping, economy tanking resulting in homelessness, suicide, increase childhood poverty then yes we do have the right to despise you.

I doubt any of us are a 💯 confident about taking a new vaccine, but we feel the societal responsibility.

@Ifbutmaybe

The majority of deaths are now the double vaccinated. Fact. The "third wave" will be the vaccinated. I am happy for people to get it if they really want it. But how many want it and how many have been coerced by the promise of freedom? Get vaccinated, still social distance, still wear a mask, still isolate. No thanks

You might need to link to some evidence there, as you writing fact did not cut it for. Happy to be proven wrong if you link to some trusted source

Deaths in the vaccinated are higher than the unvaccinated according to PHE.

And Az/Oxford theirselves state they don't yet know whether more severe illness could occur in the vaccinated once exposed to the wild virus (this is from stage 3/4 trials consent form published in April 2021). Although it does seem more likely in the frail and elderly which is not good news for them.

@Toty

Deaths in the vaccinated are higher than the unvaccinated according to PHE.

That's because there have been far, far more people over 50 vaccinated than not. You need to luck at the percentage of vaccinated people dying compared to the percentage of unvaccinated people dying. You can't just look at the raw numbers and compare!

Come on Toty...

Yes I'm aware of that. Doesn't change the actual stats which is what people have been asking for 🤷‍♀️

@Toty

Deaths in the vaccinated are higher than the unvaccinated according to PHE.

Yeah. Look at the numbers.

Over 50s
44/117 unvaccinated
50/117 post 2 doses

Given that roughly 9/10 over 50s have had both vaccines, had none of those 94 been vaccinated, it probably would have looked more like 494 deaths, not 94.

I haven't included people with one dose, in order to keep things simple.

@Fferny1 the NHS is in crisis? You don’t say, have you only just realised because it has been for over a decade (and the rest).

The NHS crisis has been compounded by covid not created by it. Years and years of underfunding and telling the population they don’t want to pay more tax for it (I would happily pay more as long as it was actually ring fenced and protected for the NHS) have ensured that. The only campaign I remember promising money to the NHS was Brexit’s leave campaign saying we could afford to give them millions a week. It provided a great laugh but not much else.

We’ve been convinced that the NHS is a money pit but that’s not true. It was never designed to make money so all the moves to introduce a business culture have failed because it’s lacking the ability to do what every single other business does; increase profits. You can cut costs to the bone but you’re never going to make something look financially viable in a business plan if there is no capacity to generate an income.

One of the reasons I would happily pay more tax specifically for the NHS is because I know how much the same level of healthcare would cost an individual privately. The NHS is (or at least should be) great value because of the power of collective purchasing. If you appreciate value there’s no argument which model is better between properly funded state provided health care and private. You just can’t expect it to produce the same results as a private business. Compare public roads to private roads - it’s a low bar and yet private roads are often worse than public.

If you want to talk personal responsibility, well in the context of the NHS the best thing you can do is not get old. Living 20+ years with multiple chronic conditions costs far more than the person who’s eaten or drank themselves into a heart attack in their sixties. They’ve also graciously eased the pension and care home crisis too.

Deaths in the vaccinated are higher than the unvaccinated according to PHE.

Wow
Is that correct?
That’s really worrying

2 young lads I know have been really poorly after the jab
One 21 year old took a fit and smashed his head open when he landed on the floor and the 18 year old was so ill on the night he was sent home from work

What on Earth is in this vax that’s causing so much ill health

@confuseddotcom090 I’ve c and p’d.

Gene therapies involve making deliberate changes to a patient’s DNA in order to cure or alleviate a genetic condition. This can be by adding a functional copy of a gene, disabling a gene that makes a faulty product or changing gene activation.

The mRNA from the vaccines does not enter the cell nucleus or interact with the DNA at all, so it does not constitute gene therapy.

Gene therapies can have long-lasting effects because they permanently change the cell’s DNA, with these changes being inherited by any daughter cells that result if the cell divides. In contrast, mRNAs are always transitory and are not inherited by daughter cells, making them ideal for use in vaccines.

Although mRNA therapies have been the subject of clinical trials for many years, their role in the fight against Covid-19 has only accelerated interest in their usefulness to combat other conditions, including rare diseases and cancer.

@shewalkslikerihanna this has always been expected to happen. There are more vaccinated adults than unvaccinated so in percentage terms deaths are still higher in the pool of unvaccinated eg. If you have ten unvaccinated people and eight die that’s a higher percentage than having one hundred vaccinated people and eight dying iyswim. It’s the same argument why a millionaire giving away £100 isn’t as much of a sacrifice as someone with only £1000.

That’s not to say that we’re not going to hit a wall and still find ourselves in the predicament that the hospital admissions and fatality numbers are still to high for our infrastructure even with vaccination but it’s not anywhere approaching proof they don’t work. We know that some people don’t respond to vaccination 100%.

Death of the vaccinated explained.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2021/jun/27/why-most-people-who-now-die-with-covid-have-been-vaccinated

I have relatives who aren’t getting the jab - their choice but the same relatives will be the first to wail “unfair” or “I don’t understand” if it comes to it that unvaccinated people are precluded from certain things

@shewalks that’s two people out of how many? I know roughly around 80 people, probably 70 are vaccinated and not one instance of anyone being poorly from it, other than a headache. You need to read the above article which explains why their are deaths after vaccinations…

@everythingthelighttouches

Are you grateful to all those people who have had the vaccine OP?

Wtf???

I am not having the vaccine, everything. I'm not grateful to them, I feel sad for them (as, as expected, the vaccinated are the ones who are not only more likely to end up in hospital with covid, they are 62% more likely to die from covid).

I am, however, grateful that I didn't have the shot

@AwakeNotAsleep please post stats to back up the nonsense you posted.

@everythingthelighttouches

Are you grateful to all those people who have had the vaccine OP?

😂 Are you for real? The unvaccinated are actually meant to be grateful to the vaccinated? Wow, this whole thing really has gone to some peoples heads....

[quote UndercoverToad]@confuseddotcom090 I’ve c and p’d.

Gene therapies involve making deliberate changes to a patient’s DNA in order to cure or alleviate a genetic condition. This can be by adding a functional copy of a gene, disabling a gene that makes a faulty product or changing gene activation.

The mRNA from the vaccines does not enter the cell nucleus or interact with the DNA at all, so it does not constitute gene therapy.

Gene therapies can have long-lasting effects because they permanently change the cell’s DNA, with these changes being inherited by any daughter cells that result if the cell divides. In contrast, mRNAs are always transitory and are not inherited by daughter cells, making them ideal for use in vaccines.

Although mRNA therapies have been the subject of clinical trials for many years, their role in the fight against Covid-19 has only accelerated interest in their usefulness to combat other conditions, including rare diseases and cancer.[/quote]
You've cut n paste that off the Internet, haven't you?

It's facile. I know full well how mRNA, gene and even cell therapies work. It's my job to explain it. There are nuances and overlaps and I simply cannot be arsed to explain it all to you because it's irrelevant.

Suffice to say, it doesn't matter how they work but it is NOVEL with novel excipients, and we do not know the dose of S protein they produce, the PK, the biodistribution, carcinogenicity or neurotoxicity of these approaches because unlike regular drugs, you don't have to product these data for a vaccine. Because the vaccine is assumed to be a virus or part virus (natural or synthetic) and as such is well understood. To ignore the differences in MoA for ChAd DNA or mRNA approaches and the additional risks they present is supremely lax of the regulators.

I've got my vaccinations and definitely had my doubts right up until when I was stood there but if everyone decided not to get it where would we be?

I'm not an expert in the field and don't think it's the holy grail just trying to do my bit.

@confuseddotcom090 yes, I indicated that I’d c and p’ed at beginning of post.

I do have limited knowledge.

But - I think it’s wrong to claim that it’s gene therapy. Based on what I can gauge online and fact checking.

If there was any major risk, I can’t believe that someone, somewhere, worldwide wouldn’t be saying - halt - we don’t have enough data/evidence/this could be dangerous.

You sound supremely knowledgeable - but of course I’m going to put my faith in what the best medical consensus of opinion is - around the world. Not social media…

If you are very concerned, work in the field - are you shouting loud and why aren’t you being heard?

[quote Waxonwaxoff0]@AwakeNotAsleep please post stats to back up the nonsense you posted.[/quote]
I second this request!