Thoughts on the non-vaccinated!

[UnluckyMe]

Why have people been so critical of those who have chosen not to be vaccinated against covid 19?

I've read all sorts of comments about those, like me, who chose not to be vaccinated calling us selfish, uneducated and so on. There seems to be a massive lack of respect for what others choose to do with their body and I'm just curious as go why people feel the need to make comments about it. There are obviously many who don't and I do acknowledge that, my post is more directed to thoughts on why the other side do (feels very playground bully like to me).

The way I see it is everyone has a choice - respect that choice and move on with life rather than throwing insults at one another or dwell on something out of your own control.

I'd also like to confirm i do not own tin foil hat, expect the end of days soon or believe everyone will drop dead in 6 months / will transform into magneto from X-Men (all those coins sticking to people's arms!)

I have followed the rules down to a tee but have just chosen not to be vaccinated at present. Maybe I will change my mind, maybe I won't 🤷‍♀️ who knows.

I am genuinely curious - I read on another post "all vulnerable and sensible people have had the jab" as a comment which riled me a bit too! I like to think I'm pretty sensible but clearly this Mumsnetter thinks otherwise 😆😆

Selfish and not socially responsible.
Stop thinking about yourself and think about vulnerable people and the wider community.
The more people who don't vaccinate the longer the pandemic may go on for.

Safety data milestone required by U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) has been achieved

What do you mean what are you missing? It’s passed the primary efficacy tests, and they are gathering data. It’s ONLY authorised for emergency use. It hasn’t yet reached the point where it would be deemed as acceptable for general use. That will be in 2023.

@slightlysnippy

“ The current stats very clearly show that the vaccine, although not reducing our COVID numbers, are reducing the severity of the illness and reducing the number of people needing hospital care. ”

Because the people most likely to need hospital care have, themselves, been vaccinated. A young, healthy person is unlikely to end up in hospital anyway. Just out of curiosity, are older/vulnerable people who decide not to have the vaccine selfish too? Or is it just young, healthy people?

You typed @ReallyReady111 this - “ Phase 3 of the trial includes safety monitoring for adverse events till 2023”

Phase 3 has been completed!!! See my link! What am I missing??

Sorry - undercovertoad is me - hornbill.

If the safety concerns over the vaccine were so worrying - there would be reputable professors and academics worldwide saying - we shouldn’t be taking it.

The only people I see giving that advice are the misinformed, the quackademics and people with an agenda.

@UndercoverToad hello! Love the NC.

Yes it’s ongoing as per the extract I’ve highlighted. And yes reputable professors are still gathering data. We just don’t know how vulnerable but rarer populations will react as that data would be difficult to gather during the regular trial period. The monitoring is ongoing. That’s the point. Nobody knows. Without the EUA this medication would not be allowed to roll out widely yet.

If there was no NHS and we all had to pay for our treatment you can bet these vaccine refusers would be first in line.

Nope. Whether I had to pay or not, I’m very unlikely to end up in hospital. Tbh we tend to use private healthcare for most things anyway now.

@ReallyReady111 no, no - the phase 3 is completed!! Studies are still ongoing - but not for phase 3?

But from all the fact checking, large scale studies, peer based research - a top professor somewhere would be saying ‘stop’ if there was a big risk. That’s just not happening!! And millions have been vaccinated.

Sorry for being quite passionate about this. To be honest I’m scared, mostly for the poor kids who are going to be collateral damage from all of this. I feel so much all those both vaccinated and unvaccinated who are having to make difficult decisions every day for themselves and for their family. Compassion at a time like this is the only way to keep ourselves human. I’m very aware that I don’t know it all, and am trying to stay up to speed with all the latest developments. If the data changes, my course of action will as well. Those who are entrenched in their views making no effort to reach across the aisle and understand others’ perspectives make me sad. I may not agree with some people’s actions (parents vaccinating their perfectly healthy 12 year olds when there is currently no data to support any genuine benefit to them and significant risks) but I can empathise with their worry and fear, which must be exhausting. It’s easier to stick your head in the sand and believe you’re totally morally right. Sadly there are many shades of grey at the moment.

It is not yet licensed. Your first link specifically refers to its “ongoing phase 3 trials”. The primary landmarks have been reached, but the trial is ongoing. Not just the monitoring, which will occur for two years after prospective licensing of the drug. The point is that data on safety has not yet been gathered. I think the attached photos make that clear.

I’m afraid I’ve got to tap out here. It’s been interesting hearing other people’s views as always. And I’ll continue to do that. But those calling for the summary execution (or at least the removal of NHS treatment ) from unvaccinated people are I think acting without really understanding that many would love to get safely vaccinated, but can’t. I don’t know how that is morally reprehensible. I just don’t.

[quote ReallyReady111]@slightlysnippy And interestingly the population that cases are skyrocketing in, and hospital admissions also increasing from what I can gather on this board- the under 18s. Interesting isn’t it. It’s almost like by experimentally mass vaccinating a healthy population in the middle of a pandemic (rather than giving our share of the vaccines to the old and CEV in other countries once our populations of CEV were protected) we have CAUSED the vaccine to attack the only section of the population that remains unvaccinated. Ie children. Since the beginning of the pandemic the one thing that all the medical professionals have been in agreement with was that Covid didn’t badly affect kids (not only hospitalisations and deaths, but actually catching it.) But now, but pursuing this selfish global strategy of vaccinating 100% of our adult population (and to hell with the rest of the world), you watch as the virus mutates to attack children more virulently. I predict by the autumn the situation will be dire enough for the govt to advise vaccinating all children too (with unknown risks.) This wasn’t inevitable. We have caused it by experimenting with this vaccine on a non vulnerable population. That to me is selfish.[/quote]
From a scientific perspective your post makes absolutely no sense, per chance are you not vaccinated, I could make a correlation there to your intelligence, but I'm too polite.

[quote bumbleymummy]@slightlysnippy

“ The current stats very clearly show that the vaccine, although not reducing our COVID numbers, are reducing the severity of the illness and reducing the number of people needing hospital care. ”

Because the people most likely to need hospital care have, themselves, been vaccinated. A young, healthy person is unlikely to end up in hospital anyway. Just out of curiosity, are older/vulnerable people who decide not to have the vaccine selfish too? Or is it just young, healthy people?[/quote]
You'll have to point out in my post where I mentioned age!

@ReallyReady111 I don’t know if you’re likely to read this but I wouldn’t give to much credibility to those who state the unvaccinated shouldn’t get hospital treatment.

Since I can remember certain types have called for NHS provision to be withheld from smokers, the obese, drug addicts, alcoholics, the promiscuous etc. I’m willing to bet that the venn diagram between those characters and the newer flavour of rabidists who would like to see the unvaccinated barred from covid treatment would reveal a large crossover. These people are even a significant minority they’ve just got big gobs. There is no appetite in this country to leave people without medical care no matter why they need it.

Ok, so older/vulnerable people deciding not to have the vaccine because they’re concerned about side effects/impact on their health are also ‘selfish’ in your eyes. Fair enough.

*aren’t even!

@slightlysnippy Ad hominem. Excellent. Yes I’ve already explained that I’m unvaccinated (after consultation with my doctor) due to multiple autoimmune disorders plus pregnancy.i could infer from your inability to read that you are uninterested in listening to voices other than your own. But I don’t know you so I won’t jump to that conclusion.

Scientifically, we have no idea what the outcome of mass vaccination of healthy young people during a pandemic will be that’s a fact. Observing that the virus is currently running rampant in the only remaining unvaccinated population isn’t really speculation. It’s happening. So I don’t know what exactly is so confusing or unscientific about my comment.

@Cornettoninja Yes I think you might be right

@Cornetto & @Bumbly we will all have to start taking responsibility for our health because the NHS Is in crisis - Have you realised?

Doctors & Nurses have had enough and are retiring early in their droves. Most newly qualified doctors are planning to work part time. There is a major shortage of Gp's. We are not quite at the stage of desperation of places like India...yet.

The NHS is taken for granted & abused because it's free. There will come a stage and its already happening where you will need to pay for treatment. If you don't have the money you will get very very sick . Emergency care is still available and is generally excellent ( as said by Chris Witty the other day looking rather angry and most unhappy).

Have I realised that the NHS is under pressure and has been for years? Yes. That’s why my family has had to use private healthcare more and more. I do actually take quite good care of my health and am at low risk of covid and other illnesses as a result so I’m not really the person you should be lecturing about this.

We need to deal with the underlying problems that mean the NHS is barely able to cope every winter and stop this idea that we can just restrict people’s lives as some kind of band aid for it.

@Fferny1 Exactly. The govt is spending billions vaccinating healthy people, which could be invested in the NHS (to offset the decades of underfunding.) Or R&D on treatments for Covid that would improve the morbidity rates of those who are particularly vulnerable to it.

@Ready ... vaccinating individuals to avoid infection is the most cost effective cheapest way of avoiding extortionate costs ( ICU & the like) down the line.
Covid vaccines are working much better than anyone thought. Hence the few numbers in Hospital relative to cases.

I'm not actually lecturing anyone. I just have large numbers of relatives working or have worked for the Nhs. They are at breaking point. Covid is the final straw for many of them.

There seems to be some confusion here about clinical studies.

A ph3 study will have 2 elements: efficacy (with primary endpoints, and often secondary one too) and safety.

Sometimes you can get interim readouts on both.

The EUAs were granted on the basis of interim read outs for both.

We don't have long term data for either (and now we never will on efficacy as studies have been unblinded, and it won't be completely reliable on safety either, owing to the lack of control group, although historic reference data can be used as a back up). The studies are ongoing with safety follow up and presumably they are monitoring antibody titres and infection rates in vaccinated patients as well, on an ongoing basis.

There is still much we don't know about duration of efficacy and long term safety profile. These are completely new approaches to vaccination and we have no idea if they will be as safe or durable as more traditional vaccines over a medium to longer term timeframe.

Much of the usual work preclinical work has not been done either, as the regulators have allowed them to be treated as traditional vaccines, rather than new MoA gene therapies, which arguably they are. So that introduces another element of risk.

If you're crapping your pants about COVID for whatever reason, it may still make sense to take those risks. Especially if you are nearing end of life (long term concerns not being a major factor). But you're not going to be able to reassure me due diligence has been done on the back of what I've seen from the MHRA. Slapdash and shoddy review, and most definitely politically motivated.

Asking the young and healthy to bear these vaccine risks to protect the scared and/or unhealthy is selfish, IMO. Especially when compensation for vaccine injuries is hard to obtain and derisory.

And vaccinating children for covid is an abomination. Building a wall of children like Maddie de Garay to hide behind. Shameful.

My gut feeling and everything I read tells me all of this @confuseddotcom090

I read between the lines. I know who I trust. But I'm not a scientist so everything I feel must be wrong. That's what people say to me.

@ReallyReady111 I will stop I after this!!

The phase 3 clinical trials were completed and approval was given. That approval was under emergency use in the US - due to pandemic.

The ongoing studies for phase 3 are standard practise - but the phase 3 trial for approval was completed.

I do see what you mean. But it’s just not possible to get that time! And the risk to an unvaccinated person from Covid is far greater. And the risk they pose to others is far greater.