Thoughts on the non-vaccinated!

[UnluckyMe]

Why have people been so critical of those who have chosen not to be vaccinated against covid 19?

I've read all sorts of comments about those, like me, who chose not to be vaccinated calling us selfish, uneducated and so on. There seems to be a massive lack of respect for what others choose to do with their body and I'm just curious as go why people feel the need to make comments about it. There are obviously many who don't and I do acknowledge that, my post is more directed to thoughts on why the other side do (feels very playground bully like to me).

The way I see it is everyone has a choice - respect that choice and move on with life rather than throwing insults at one another or dwell on something out of your own control.

I'd also like to confirm i do not own tin foil hat, expect the end of days soon or believe everyone will drop dead in 6 months / will transform into magneto from X-Men (all those coins sticking to people's arms!)

I have followed the rules down to a tee but have just chosen not to be vaccinated at present. Maybe I will change my mind, maybe I won't 🤷‍♀️ who knows.

I am genuinely curious - I read on another post "all vulnerable and sensible people have had the jab" as a comment which riled me a bit too! I like to think I'm pretty sensible but clearly this Mumsnetter thinks otherwise 😆😆

There was a post on another thread from a poster who said that the car her wheelchair fits in wont be fixed for another two months and thats why she hasnt had her vaccine yet. Because she cant get to the vax centre without it.

The backlash against non-vaccinated people is a normative process of holding people to account for deviating from a societal contract or bond which centres around acting in a way that is beneficial to our shared health, economic and social wellbeing.

It's exacerbated in this case because the pandemic was a mass societal event through which we all suffered and struggled. There is an expectation that we all want to get out of this in the fastest way possible.

If you don't take the vaccine I don't think you can be at all surprised that a significant proportion of society will react negatively to your decision.

I think it would be nice of society to consider the impact on those who are vulnerable and have certain days or events where they can attend where they know everyone will be vaccinated. It’d also be nice to have events for those who haven’t been vaccinated too.

I think people should choose when and if they get vaccinated, but should be barred from certain jobs where risk to clinically vulnerable people is high (eg immuno suppressed, on chemo etc).

@MarianGW but that is exactly what I said. We don't differentiate between deserving and undeserving patients in our health care system. I also said that is as it should be. But that doesn't mean we can not judge people who will not take one action that will significant reduce the likelihood of them or others needing health care resources.
Maybe some people judge some of the actions you posted. The important thing is our health care systems don't.
Do drunk drivers being treated get judged? Probably. But they will get treated the same.
Increasingly inactive, poor diets, smoking, over weight, drinking, are judged by society but not the health system. But this is changing with increasingly more conditions put on continuing treatment. You won't get a liver transplant if you still drink alcohol, lung transplant if you smoke, gastric bypass unless you lose weight first, some cancer treatments if you are over a certain age, etc etc. Health care is increasingly being rationed and decisions made on your choices that might effect outcomes of the treatment.
So it is not unreasonable to say you have to own decisions that effect your health care.
You won't get a new liver if you are an active alcoholic because you have made choices that compromise the health outcomes.
Is it too far a step to say if you make choices not to be vaccinated then you could be denied Health Services.
At this time, yes it is too far a step, but if we get more varients that are more infectious could those decisions be made?
All I know that if two years ago someone had said we would accept the Government stopping us from going to each other houses, gathering to bury our dead, being at our children's weddings, closing legally run businesses down, restricting our movements to defined areas and preventing us from leaving the Country, we would have thought they were dilusional.
But it happened.

Why? Even if they are scared?
I was scared but got the vaccine because (a) its safer for me personally than not being vaccinated, (b) the more people are vaccinated, the fewer people will die or be seriously ill, (c) the more people that are vaccinated, the lower the risk of more dangerous variants occurring, and (d) the more people that are vaccinated, the lower the chances of us living under restrictions for years to come.

So yeah, scared or not I saw it as the most sensible thing to do for myself, and the more responsible thing to do for society.

I would have thought less of myself had I not gone through with it.

No one has to respect your choice, they have to respect your right to make a choice. There's a difference

This. I 100% believe in bodily autonomy and will fight tooth and nail for everyone's right to maintain it including refusing vaccination.

However I still think refusing the vaccine is stupid. And that's not name calling. I genuinely think the people doing so are making a poor (stupid) choice and have no concept of making an actual informed risk assessment beyond being driven by anecdotes and emotions as opposed to actual facts and risk likelihood.

And I think that poor risk assessment can only come from a lack of education on risk and risk vs reward behaviour.

And I think it's selfish to put other people at significant risk because you're incapable of actually working out the actual risks.

None of this is name calling. It's actually what I think of people refusing the vaccine and their reasoning why. But I wouldn't go shouting it at any random person, but here, we'll you did ask OP.

[quote ClareBlue]@MarianGW but that is exactly what I said. We don't differentiate between deserving and undeserving patients in our health care system. I also said that is as it should be. But that doesn't mean we can not judge people who will not take one action that will significant reduce the likelihood of them or others needing health care resources.
Maybe some people judge some of the actions you posted. The important thing is our health care systems don't.
Do drunk drivers being treated get judged? Probably. But they will get treated the same.
Increasingly inactive, poor diets, smoking, over weight, drinking, are judged by society but not the health system. But this is changing with increasingly more conditions put on continuing treatment. You won't get a liver transplant if you still drink alcohol, lung transplant if you smoke, gastric bypass unless you lose weight first, some cancer treatments if you are over a certain age, etc etc. Health care is increasingly being rationed and decisions made on your choices that might effect outcomes of the treatment.
So it is not unreasonable to say you have to own decisions that effect your health care.
You won't get a new liver if you are an active alcoholic because you have made choices that compromise the health outcomes.
Is it too far a step to say if you make choices not to be vaccinated then you could be denied Health Services.
At this time, yes it is too far a step, but if we get more varients that are more infectious could those decisions be made?
All I know that if two years ago someone had said we would accept the Government stopping us from going to each other houses, gathering to bury our dead, being at our children's weddings, closing legally run businesses down, restricting our movements to defined areas and preventing us from leaving the Country, we would have thought they were dilusional.
But it happened.[/quote]
Organ transplants are far and few between, hence why they have strict criteria and are rationed. Having to be a certain weight to get a gastric bypass etc is due to the risks during surgery if you are over a certain size.
There will never be a a scenario where someone is denied treatment due to their vaccination status (regardless of how some MNetters might be banging the drum on that one). It will will always be based on who needs treatment and will have the best outcome. Would you seriously think that an unvaccinated 30 year old Covid patient that needs a ventilator would be over looked for a 90 year old Covid vaccinated patient that was in hospital for end of life care anyway?
How far back would you go? Someone in their 40s who needs treatment for cervical cancer gets turned away in favour of a 20 year old who happened to be young enough to get the HPV vaccine?

@Ratalie

Why? Even if they are scared? I was scared but got the vaccine because (a) its safer for me personally than not being vaccinated, (b) the more people are vaccinated, the fewer people will die or be seriously ill, (c) the more people that are vaccinated, the lower the risk of more dangerous variants occurring, and (d) the more people that are vaccinated, the lower the chances of us living under restrictions for years to come.

So yeah, scared or not I saw it as the most sensible thing to do for myself, and the more responsible thing to do for society.

I would have thought less of myself had I not gone through with it.

Great for you. If you were scared and got it anyway... well, here is a medal for you.

Not everyone is you.

Great for you. If you were scared and got it anyway... well, here is a medal for you.

Not everyone is you.
Yes I'm aware and, unfortunately, that's a real problem for the rest of us.

I think @XenoBitch might be talking about phobia scared, not just scared per se.
There's plenty of people that deny themselves healthcare because of needle phobia never mind doing something for a common good.
So a common theme from this thread is that not all those not having the vaccine are doing for some lack of faith in science or governments or some strange theory about chips or control, but for other very genuine reasons that could be overcome with support and understanding.

So maybe we don't judge those people but look for solutions to support them.

The rest we definitely can judge.

Of course some people are phobic of needles and wont get it. Similarly there are others for whom it isnt safe. That makes it all the more imperative that people who are just plain old scared give themselves a talking to and get it done.

@ClareBlue

I think *@XenoBitch* might be talking about phobia scared, not just scared per se. There's plenty of people that deny themselves healthcare because of needle phobia never mind doing something for a common good. So a common theme from this thread is that not all those not having the vaccine are doing for some lack of faith in science or governments or some strange theory about chips or control, but for other very genuine reasons that could be overcome with support and understanding.

So maybe we don't judge those people but look for solutions to support them.

The rest we definitely can judge.

I agree. But the overwhelming theme in this thread (and any that get started that are similar) is that anyone not getting the vaccine is... thick, uneducated, selfish etc... I could go on. Look back on this thread.... has anyone actually shown any understanding, or reassurance for anyone hesitant about getting it? Nope. It has all been name calling.

I posted a few days ago, on another thread, that my 5 year old niece had had her life saving operation cancelled 5 times over the last year because there were covid patients at the hospital. This little girl had already had 2 major heart operations and this operation was to be the final one. The surgeon was happy to perform the operation and was confident it would be a success. She has been in hospital all this year, awaiting her operation. Her one year old little brother hasn’t seen his sister or mum for most of his life, as he has been staying with relatives.

My niece lost her battle yesterday - whilst waiting for clearance that she would be able to enter the corridor leading to PICU following her operation. My niece lost her life because as there were covid patients on the floor that PICU is situated, and she was too ill to be transferred to another hospital prior to receiving the operation.

People who have refused the covid vaccine insist that should they contract covid that the “NHS has a duty to care for them”.

Do I think less of them? That’s an understatement!! Utter selfish bastards! 🤬

@KimmyAndMe

I posted a few days ago, on another thread, that my 5 year old niece had had her life saving operation cancelled 5 times over the last year because there were covid patients at the hospital. This little girl had already had 2 major heart operations and this operation was to be the final one. The surgeon was happy to perform the operation and was confident it would be a success. She has been in hospital all this year, awaiting her operation. Her one year old little brother hasn’t seen his sister or mum for most of his life, as he has been staying with relatives.

My niece lost her battle yesterday - whilst waiting for clearance that she would be able to enter the corridor leading to PICU following her operation. My niece lost her life because as there were covid patients on the floor that PICU is situated, and she was too ill to be transferred to another hospital prior to receiving the operation.

People who have refused the covid vaccine insist that should they contract covid that the “NHS has a duty to care for them”.

Do I think less of them? That’s an understatement!! Utter selfish bastards! 🤬

I am sorry to see this, but there are double jabbed people in hospital too.

Your anger is misdirected. The NHS has been chronically underfunded for years, and the pandemic has made it all the more apparent.

Well would you seriously have thought two years ago that if we wanted to meet up and discuss it at my house in January I would have been fined.
There are reasons for the transplant criteria which are now normalised, the examples you give are at the extremes and nobody has issues there. But away from the extremes and onto the margins we have committees that meet and decide on how healthcare is going to be rationed now. They basically decide if someone is going to be treated on a cost benefit assessment.
But you are probably right in that whether you have been vaccinated will not be part of any criteria, but wait, it already is. You try getting any medical interventions for serious lacerations without having tetanus vaccinations. And a booster while you're here. Fine. Not even questioned that you have to have it. But the vaccine was demonised when it was released. Nobody wanted it. It has saved millions of lives.

I am sorry to see this, but there are double jabbed people in hospital too.
But the vast majority of covid patients in hospital are unvaccinated and, were vaccine uptake better, it's very very likely there would be fewer vaccinated people there too.

Your response is like a smoker saying "well non smokers get lung cancer too". Yes, they do, but in far smaller numbers (and sometimes as a result of exposure to smokers).

@Ratalie

I am sorry to see this, but there are double jabbed people in hospital too. But the vast majority of covid patients in hospital are unvaccinated and, were vaccine uptake better, it's very very likely there would be fewer vaccinated people there too.

Your response is like a smoker saying "well non smokers get lung cancer too". Yes, they do, but in far smaller numbers (and sometimes as a result of exposure to smokers).

And they all deserve treatment.

[quote ClareBlue]@MarianGW but that is exactly what I said. We don't differentiate between deserving and undeserving patients in our health care system. I also said that is as it should be. But that doesn't mean we can not judge people who will not take one action that will significant reduce the likelihood of them or others needing health care resources.
Maybe some people judge some of the actions you posted. The important thing is our health care systems don't.
Do drunk drivers being treated get judged? Probably. But they will get treated the same.
Increasingly inactive, poor diets, smoking, over weight, drinking, are judged by society but not the health system. But this is changing with increasingly more conditions put on continuing treatment. You won't get a liver transplant if you still drink alcohol, lung transplant if you smoke, gastric bypass unless you lose weight first, some cancer treatments if you are over a certain age, etc etc. Health care is increasingly being rationed and decisions made on your choices that might effect outcomes of the treatment.
So it is not unreasonable to say you have to own decisions that effect your health care.
You won't get a new liver if you are an active alcoholic because you have made choices that compromise the health outcomes.
Is it too far a step to say if you make choices not to be vaccinated then you could be denied Health Services.
At this time, yes it is too far a step, but if we get more varients that are more infectious could those decisions be made?
All I know that if two years ago someone had said we would accept the Government stopping us from going to each other houses, gathering to bury our dead, being at our children's weddings, closing legally run businesses down, restricting our movements to defined areas and preventing us from leaving the Country, we would have thought they were dilusional.
But it happened.[/quote]
You are differentiating and your differentiation doesn't hold water. And yes, it is a step too far to say that the unvaxxed should be denied NHS treatment (that they have probably paid for). Just as it would be a step too far to deny treatment for vaccine injures to people who accepted an experimental vaccine still in trials with limited safety data which some might argue is monumentally stupid. It would still be a step too far with variants - the whole variants stuff is anti-scientific. Viruse mutate all the time - and they become more contagious but less lethal over time (it is a well-worn path) yet we have idiots constantly trying to scare us with new variants.

There is a reason why we must never mandate vaccines. The UK is a signatory to the UN Humans Rights & Bio-Ethics convention which specifically precludes coerced medical interventions (which includes vaccies). Coercion is widely defined and refusing medical treatment unless you were vaccinated would almost certainly breach the convention. That is also written into our Public Heath Act. The convention has is origins in the Nuremburg trials of the doctors for atrocties they committed. Need I say more.

As for never having imagined that we would do what we've been doing for the last 18 months - I agree. It beggars belief that so many people could have been so easily swayed to give up their liberties. And that the vast majority of them have done so without ever having exercised their brains. For my degree many years ago I read a 1,000 page tme on how the Nazis managed to get their population to the point they did - it was chilling in its banality but the parallels with some of what was happening in our own society in the last year or so, are a litte too close for comfort.

And they all deserve treatment.
I didn't say that they didn't

The point is that saying 'well there are vaccinated people in hospital too' is not a reasonable argument when the vaccinated make up only a very small portion of those hospitalized, and when there would almost certainly be fewer vaccinated people in hospital were there fewer unvaccinated people in society.

@KimmyAndMe we are all so sorry for your loss. This is the reality of healthcare and finite resources and the human cost. That she was so near to having the intervention required makes it even more heart breaking, if it could be.
Of course there are vaccinated people in hospital but the fact is that if you are not vaccinated you are much more likely to either be in hospital of contributed to someone else being there. So it seems reasonable to direct anger at unvaccinated people. The NHS is not chronically under funded. Healthcare can absorb what ever resources you put in and demand more. The NHS is relatively well funded per Capita compared to most modern health systems.
Anyone can Google the figures of expenditure on public health in developed economies. Management effectiveness and efficiency of the Service is another matter.

[quote ClareBlue]@KimmyAndMe we are all so sorry for your loss. This is the reality of healthcare and finite resources and the human cost. That she was so near to having the intervention required makes it even more heart breaking, if it could be.
Of course there are vaccinated people in hospital but the fact is that if you are not vaccinated you are much more likely to either be in hospital of contributed to someone else being there. So it seems reasonable to direct anger at unvaccinated people. The NHS is not chronically under funded. Healthcare can absorb what ever resources you put in and demand more. The NHS is relatively well funded per Capita compared to most modern health systems.
Anyone can Google the figures of expenditure on public health in developed economies. Management effectiveness and efficiency of the Service is another matter.[/quote]
A lot of people declining the vaccine would not be in hospital anyway. Take up amongst the groups most vulnerable to Covid has been amazing.

I am sorry to see this, but there are double jabbed people in hospital too

The whole point of the jabs is to prevent covid symptoms being so bad that that vaccinated will not require hospital treatment. Of course some people will - usually because of underlying conditions.

Anyone who refuses the vaccination and contracts covid will almost certainly require to be hospitalised. Which means people who need hospital treatment for anything other than covid will be refused. Because Covid is extremely contagious! People who are ill enough to require admission into hospital are the very people who will not survive Covid!

You say you are not having the vaccine because you are scared? I’m bloody sure watching her 5 year old die from something that was treatable, had there not been covid patients, in The hospital for the past 18 months, wasn’t a walk in the park either!

And you’re wrong. My niece didn’t die because the NHS is underfunded. She died because of covid patients. I don’t know if those patients were jabbed, not jabbed through choice or not jabbed due to genuinely not being able to have the vaccine. People who refuse the vaccine because they think they are big, clever, don’t believe in covid, blame the governments handling of covid, believe “they are trying to control us”, too scared… or whatever other excuses they can think of are the ones who are putting others at risk.

Don’t try minimising the risk to others - just because you are “scared”. Nobody relishes the thought of having the vaccine. Most people had it for the population to gain herd immunity - which will only happen if everyone who can have it will have it.

Anyone who refuses the vaccination and contracts covid will almost certainly require to be hospitalised

Sorry, but that is bullshit. Where are the figures supporting this? The most uptake of the vaccine has been in the people who are most vulnerable. The people who are declining are the ones who will most likely suffer nothing much more than a cold.

You say you are not having the vaccine because you are scared?

I have said in this thread (and others if you want to stalk my post history) that I am so needle phobic, I am a danger to other people.

I do judge those who refuse the vaccine. All that we've been through over the last 18 mths and there are still those who refuse the vaccine or won''t wear a mask.
Happy to benefit from others doing so though.

Because your "personal choice" could end up hurting other people.

I feel it's my duty as a citizen of this planet to not be a spreader of communicable diseases so I have myself and my children vaccinated against COVID, influenza, measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, polio, tetanus, diphtheria, HPV. It's kind of a really neat and effective concept and I'm very grateful we can prevent disease in this way.

My dog is vaccinated fully as well. It's my duty as a dog-owner to stop my dog from getting sick with preventable diseases and spreading them to your unvaccinated dog.

So the perspective from my side is that a) y'all are just scared of needles or b) y'all have fallen into some weird corner of the internet and are gullible or not capable of critical thinking, or c) y'all are willfully selfish and unconcerned about your fellow humans including your own families.

Same goes for all the anti-masker unvaccinated spreaders.