Thoughts on the non-vaccinated!

[UnluckyMe]

Why have people been so critical of those who have chosen not to be vaccinated against covid 19?

I've read all sorts of comments about those, like me, who chose not to be vaccinated calling us selfish, uneducated and so on. There seems to be a massive lack of respect for what others choose to do with their body and I'm just curious as go why people feel the need to make comments about it. There are obviously many who don't and I do acknowledge that, my post is more directed to thoughts on why the other side do (feels very playground bully like to me).

The way I see it is everyone has a choice - respect that choice and move on with life rather than throwing insults at one another or dwell on something out of your own control.

I'd also like to confirm i do not own tin foil hat, expect the end of days soon or believe everyone will drop dead in 6 months / will transform into magneto from X-Men (all those coins sticking to people's arms!)

I have followed the rules down to a tee but have just chosen not to be vaccinated at present. Maybe I will change my mind, maybe I won't 🤷‍♀️ who knows.

I am genuinely curious - I read on another post "all vulnerable and sensible people have had the jab" as a comment which riled me a bit too! I like to think I'm pretty sensible but clearly this Mumsnetter thinks otherwise 😆😆

Thread about the flu vaccine from a few years back. Interesting to compare and contrast.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3381338-Flu-jab

All the clinically vulnerable people who are now finding out through the antibody testing that they didn’t make a response and have no antibodies. They are terrified at the thought they are not vaccinated and the UK is seemingly dropping masks and everything next week and they are stuck as they will still be in the hospitalisation and die category.

The only person I know in real life who has openly said that he refused the vaccine is someone who used to bang on about wind farms and the EU, and who now bangs on about loss of freedom. So I'm not sure that he's actually weighed up the risks of the vaccine, he's just awkward like that.

I can only form a view based on those I actually know.

@DownSideUpped

AnotherSunrise

How can any sane rational person be 'scared' of a vaccine that protects you from getting a covid variant, going into hospital and possibly dying?? Not to mention putting everyone else at risk

According to PHE there are more vaccinated over 50s in hospital than unvaccinated, and more vaccinated have died from the delta variant than unvaccinated. So I don’t think this is evidence of protection from the new variant, or prevention of hospitalisation or death. It’s evidence of the complete opposite.

Yeah, source please, because the reports I've seen from PHE say nothing of the sort.

Yes I do think less of people that choose to not get vaccinated.

I think they're selfish, entitled and don't care for others. They don't align with my beliefs and I would struggle to remain friends with them. I've not heard a single, fact based reason that warrants not getting it unless you're allergic to the ingredients or it's medically contraindicated. Other than that there's zero valid reasons.

I felt worse after my first vaccine than I did with the mild bout of COVID I had, but I got the second one because I care about preventing infections of those unable develop strong antibodies or unable to get vaccinated.

You're more likely to suffer months of post viral fatigue (even with mild Covid) or long Covid than having a reaction to the vaccine.

@JustATypo

Because your lack of vaccination puts others at risk. So it’s not a personal choice about what you are doing or not doing to “your” body. Your choice endangers the health of others, and the livelihood of others. So I can’t see how others can’t be critical of that.

If you are vaccinated & the vaccines work then what difference does it make to you if someone else isn't? If the vaccines don't work then it makes no odds either way. Since all vaccines carry some degree of risk (and MHRA already have just shy of 1m adverse reaction reports, some very minor but others involving death), you have no right to expect someone else to accept a medical intervention which may put them at risk.

You can still catch COVID even after having had the vaccine. This is why herd immunity is so important. The more people who have had the vaccine, the lower your chance of catching COVID and the more protected those who can’t have the vaccine. I know of someone who had both doses. Their child caught COVID at school and passed it on to them. They are now seriously ill.

@XenoBitch I was trying to make the point that by refusing the vaccine you are increasing the likelihood of needing health resources and these are finite. So you using the resources prevents someone else using them. I know about ambulance priority but was just making a point that decisions are made in health care all the time and if somebody can reduce the risk of them and people around them needing health care then more will be available to treat others.

Our health system makes no judgements on patients, so if you did or didn't have the vaccine and ended up in hospital it will make no difference to your treatment. Just like smokers will be treated along with rock climbers who fall. This is a great aspect of our systems. They don't identify 'patient who don't deserve treatment'. Everybody gets treated.
But if you make a decision that means you are more likely to end up there or cause somebody else to, then you have to own that.

I’m not vaccinated as I’m very young so I probably won’t bother any time soon
I don’t care what other people think about that as I don’t base my medical decisions off what suits other people

And absolutely this isn't restricted to non vaccinations, but the thread is about why non vaccinators get 'bullied'

@Carrotgarrotte

I’m not vaccinated as I’m very young so I probably won’t bother any time soon I don’t care what other people think about that as I don’t base my medical decisions off what suits other people

Can I ask what you do base them on?

[quote ClareBlue]@XenoBitch I was trying to make the point that by refusing the vaccine you are increasing the likelihood of needing health resources and these are finite. So you using the resources prevents someone else using them. I know about ambulance priority but was just making a point that decisions are made in health care all the time and if somebody can reduce the risk of them and people around them needing health care then more will be available to treat others.

Our health system makes no judgements on patients, so if you did or didn't have the vaccine and ended up in hospital it will make no difference to your treatment. Just like smokers will be treated along with rock climbers who fall. This is a great aspect of our systems. They don't identify 'patient who don't deserve treatment'. Everybody gets treated.
But if you make a decision that means you are more likely to end up there or cause somebody else to, then you have to own that.[/quote]
If I gave too much thought as to my use of the health service preventing other people using it, regardless of reason... it would make me very ill. If someone needs it, they need it. A lot of reasons for accessing healthcare is for reasons that could have been prevented anyway. I was in A&E a couple of nights ago for a suicide attempt and it played on my mind that I was taking a bed from someone who would end up there through no fault of their own and who very much wanted to live, whereas I didn't.
Department was empty anyway.

Yeah, source please, because the reports I've seen from PHE say nothing of the sort.

If I'm reading the PHE report linked in the below bbc article correctly, for under 50s it is overwhelmingly the unvaccinated who are being hospitalized or dying with the delta variant.

On the other hand, the majority of hospitalizations/deaths among the over 50s appear to be among the vaccinated (although, of course, the vast majority of over 50s are vaccinated so unvaccinated people do seem to be proportionately more likely to have serious symptoms). It isnt as big a variation as you might expect though.

www.bbc.com/news/health-57610998

I had read that Pfizer isnt doing particularly well against the delta variant compared to other vaccines, so I wonder if that's part of it.

Because your luxury to make your medical decisions are based almost entirely on the fact that other people through history have actually cared about other people and communities and based their decisions on this. And the body of knowledge that this caring population of people has developed, be it scientific research, medical expertise, volunteer drug trialists, drug manufacturers, policy makers, tax payers financing health, etc etc is the basis for all your health decisions. Because without all that you have no decisions to make.

If I were to really think about it, it feels a bit like saying 'I don't want the vaccine because of xyz, but I want everyone else to have it so my life can go back to normal.'

I'm not saying this is everyone who doesn't want the vaccine, I'm basing it on the people I know. They want their lives to return to normal but they want everyone else to take the bullet for them to allow that to happen.

But to be honest I don't really think about it. I respect it's a personal thing and everyone has right to their own bodily autonomy and if someone doesn't want to have the vaccine then I'm not going to judge them or treat them any differently for it.

OP, you haven’t responded to any of those who have politely explained the herd immunity argument. Can I ask whether you have given thought to the potential issues of not achieving it? And you haven’t commented on your reasons for not getting vaccinated. Presumably you have some and they might have some validity.

I was saddened by the poster who would have liked to be vaccinated, but could only face it if helped by her GP because of fear. I think that perhaps the health service in the UK is so overloaded that they have lost sight of the fact that there are people with individual needs. I can’t see any good reason why occasionally, people might need something other than a huge vaccination station if they have a genuine need for different care, and that includes phobias, which are very real and very unpleasant.

It strikes me that we need to talk more and listen more too. Why don’t you want the vaccine OP? Are you able to explain why?

@XenoBitch nobody will ever think that in our health systems. Anybody that is in a health crisis for whatever reason is helped to the best of the resources available. Without judgement. Hopefully it will start all the supports and help you deserve from now on.

I’m envious that they have the courage of their conviction and didn’t bow down and conform out of fear, like I did.

[quote ClareBlue]@XenoBitch I was trying to make the point that by refusing the vaccine you are increasing the likelihood of needing health resources and these are finite. So you using the resources prevents someone else using them. I know about ambulance priority but was just making a point that decisions are made in health care all the time and if somebody can reduce the risk of them and people around them needing health care then more will be available to treat others.

Our health system makes no judgements on patients, so if you did or didn't have the vaccine and ended up in hospital it will make no difference to your treatment. Just like smokers will be treated along with rock climbers who fall. This is a great aspect of our systems. They don't identify 'patient who don't deserve treatment'. Everybody gets treated.
But if you make a decision that means you are more likely to end up there or cause somebody else to, then you have to own that.[/quote]
Those who smoke, drink alcohol, are obese, engage in sports where they might break a limb, drive a car, get pregnant - all of those make it more likely that they might end up in hospital, and in the case of a car driver or sportsperson, someone else may be involved too. They will take up NHS resources. Should those people also "own" that too?

What about those who become vaccine injured - it is arguable that taking a vaccine that is still in trials and without medium to long-term safaty data is also risky. Should those people also "own" their role in using resources?

It's absurd. Never mind that the NHS is there to be used and is paid for by the taxes these 'reprobates' pay.

It's also a very slippery slope. Smokers & drinkers might argue they pay more taxes on their vices and therefore should get priority. Should those who pay more taxes get priority because, you know, theyput more in? Why should the childless pay for other people's children to be treated in hospital or educated?

There isn't one of us who could say that they have never done something that didn't expose us to some kind of risk. If you start differentiating between the deserving & less deserving you'll quickly run into a moral cess pool.

The requirement for individual assessment of need has definitely been overlooked. Do we have any idea how many are not getting vaccinated because of very real fear of needles, or agriphobia, or anxiety about going to a vaccine center. We've been telling people to be scared of other people all year. Maybe some are really scared now. Scared of official records, not documented properly for residential status, can not read or write and anxious of forms, non English speaking, traumatic medical experiences, in hidding from traumatic events, the list is pretty long the more you think about it.
Have all these things been factored in?

I'm happy for people to do what they want, and they also need to accept that there will be consequences for them- potentially extended mask wearing, not allowed in to certain countries/ events by choosing not to.

Of course I think less of people who don't get the vaccine.

Of course I think less of people who don't get the vaccine.
Why?
I say this as someone who has the vaccine!

@PrincessNutella

Of course I think less of people who don't get the vaccine.

Why? Even if they are scared?