No masks after 19th July - Hoo-blardy-Ray!!!!!

[TeddingtonTrashbag]

As reported in the DM.
So happy if it’s true.

Oh and suicides average 18 a day - again higher than the current level of covid deaths. The suicide rate has risen in the last year or so.

There is on average 1600 deaths a day there is a lot of focus on covid deaths.

Agreed suicide deaths are higher, and delays to inquests are slowing the reporting of it down.

@Againstmachine

But you know as long as your face is comfortable eh?

Yep I like my face to be comfortable thanks.

Guilt tripping doesn't work, and saying someone might die because someone no wearing a mask is on that level.

There is no shame in not being uncomfortable. Evidently you are a puritan who insists everyone sits on a spike (and share one with your husband as two would be extravagant)

@Againstmachine

Oh and suicides average 18 a day - again higher than the current level of covid deaths. The suicide rate has risen in the last year or so.

There is on average 1600 deaths a day there is a lot of focus on covid deaths.

Agreed suicide deaths are higher, and delays to inquests are slowing the reporting of it down.

Exactly that, approximately 1% of deaths are from covid. Meanwhile there’s a backlog of undiagnosed and untreated conditions that will cause who knows how many unnecessary deaths further down the road.

Evidently you are a puritan who insists everyone sits on a spike (and share one with your husband as two would be extravagant)

There is no shame in not being uncomfortable. Evidently you are a puritan who insists everyone sits on a spike (and share one with your husband as two would be extravagant)

Love it. 🤣

@TeddingtonTrashbag

I'm assuming that is aimed at the person I'm replying to as I'm anti masks.

to @Blossomtoes and @Againstmachine

suicide deaths aren't rising from the evidence I've seen

www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n834

"Suicide rates haven’t risen, but we should be cautious"

This is from an article in the BMJ from April 2021 by probably the most senior person in the UK on suicide reasearch.

Also deeply reassuring, Stilltalkstotrees. I do find such views fairly hard to understand.

In Gilead, yes, absolutely, go for it - make a stand; resist or die; accept any collateral as reasonable.

In lil' old 2021 England, on the subject of my cute cat mask and a bus trip to the chippy, though?

I like to think that, if my cat mask were a true symbol of oppression in a more degraded democracy than our own, I'd have the courage to fight back. (And if I thought my cat mask could kill someone, in some dystopic alternative reality, it would be off in an instant).

Unfortunately, the scientific consensus says it's the other way round.

:(

Wow, lots of posts since I last looked. Thanks to everyone; reading now.

@Blossomtoes

Oh and suicides average 18 a day - again higher than the current level of covid deaths. The suicide rate has risen in the last year or so.

Has it? I thought that the suicide figures for 2020 were still provisional and showing a decrease which was heavily caveated with a warning that coroners courts are experiencing backlogs.

I don’t know what the finalised figures will be but I don’t know if you can conclusively say that one way or another.

Beyondstressed - really interesting, and totally agree.

Blossomtoes - I'll trust you on the numbers, and, if so, it is awful - however, I do find this approach to the debate ("It's not worth doing thing #1 because of [unrelated] thing #2" (eg. "It's not worth wearing crappy cloth masks on the daily commute because we're not all travelling to work via mobile surgically sterile operating theatres" - cool image - or, "People are dying from cancer, too, so why wear masks to protect the Covid victims?") a bit disingenuous; plus, as you point out in your ref. to "untreated conditions", limiting Covid patients in hospitals gives more time & space to the others, so surely this is one of the strongest arguments for wearing a mask, given we know it really could make a difference in this respect?! (If you already meant this, apologies).

Sliiperydippery - fair point about the seatbelts; not ideal as an analogy...

Herecomesthesun - thanks for the link re: the suicides, as that's my understanding, too, though I wasn't sure and wouldn't have known where to look right now

And Teddington - well, you've got me totally convinced with the Puritan comment; nothing like a bit of empathetic ad Hominem to convert the unbeliever to your cause...

@herecomesthsun

to *@Blossomtoes and @Againstmachine*

suicide deaths aren't rising from the evidence I've seen

www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n834

"Suicide rates haven’t risen, but we should be cautious"

This is from an article in the BMJ from April 2021 by probably the most senior person in the UK on suicide reasearch.

How about suicide attempts and self harm? The cops and paramedics I have spoken to have seen an increase in both. Also a huge increase in calls to mental health lines. My local crisis team has seen their case load double.

Completed suicide alone should not be a measure of the mental health of the nation.

[quote Againstmachine]@TeddingtonTrashbag

I'm assuming that is aimed at the person I'm replying to as I'm anti masks.[/quote]
Yes!

You’re right @XenoBitch, but it’s generally accepted that statements like that should be backed up by figures and not just anecdote.

I’m absolutely not saying that it’s not important because it is, but when we’re all throwing around figures to make comparisons and try and find a balance then there should be actual figures to do that.

I didn't say that completed suicide was the complete measure of mental illness, I was correcting the previous misleading statements that completed suicide had increased.

I imagine that the alternative to lockdown would have had a downside for mental health also, with an overwhelmed health service, society in disarray etc.

Some people may find this summer of "freedom" emotionally difficult, especially anyone with clinically vulnerable people in their family.

Very good point, Xeno. Depressing. And understandable. And I've seen it myself in some friends, I'm afraid.

I'd say this is the product of lockdowns more than mask-wearing, though?

And most experts would agree that mask-wearing makes future lockdowns less likely (a general consensus that masks mitigate against the chance of new variants - and also against the outside possibility that our vax rates won't win the race against hospitalisations, as Johnson's gambling), so...

Yet another argument for enduring masks a bit longer, from a certain perspective?

a general consensus that masks mitigate against the chance of new variants - and also against the outside possibility that our vax rates won't win the race against hospitalisations, as Johnson's gambling), so...
Errrr no - there is not s consensus that masks ‘mitigate’ against anything.
Spurious claim.

@TeddingtonTrashbag

a general consensus that masks mitigate against the chance of new variants - and also against the outside possibility that our vax rates won't win the race against hospitalisations, as Johnson's gambling), so... Errrr no - there is not s consensus that masks ‘mitigate’ against anything. Spurious claim.

jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776536

yep there's a scientific consensus that they prevent spread and also reduce exposure to infection

" During the pandemic, the scientific evidence has increased. Compelling data now demonstrate that community mask wearing is an effective nonpharmacologic intervention to reduce the spread of this infection, especially as source control to prevent spread from infected persons, but also as protection to reduce wearers’ exposure to infection."

from the Journal of the American Medical Association

Errrr no - there is not s consensus that masks ‘mitigate’ against anything.
Spurious claim

Truthfully, claims on both sides are equally open to debate, it’s a fairly difficult one to prove beyond doubt either way. Neither side can claim absolutes and if they are they’re kidding themselves.

Personally it comes down to which one potentially causes more harm than good on a population level. I think the UK has got the balance fairly right with exemptions and the politicking and posturing that has emerged around masks is unnecessary.

If people don’t like wearing them then recent news has been great for them but it’s a stupidly easy win for a fairly incompetent government that will give up any small benefit just for the sake of popularity.

Neither side can claim absolutes and if they are they’re kidding themselves
But this is just was the PP mask-zealot claimed.
Whay is it that makes people cling so desperately to a totem?

@TeddingtonTrashbag

Neither side can claim absolutes and if they are they’re kidding themselves But this is just was the PP mask-zealot claimed. Whay is it that makes people cling so desperately to a totem?

I can’t answer for anyone else but if I had to guess it would be because removing lighter measures in the face of growing infection rates seems bonkers, I certainly think so.

I don’t know about totems. What makes you cling to yours? I think you’re getting into a much deeper psychological debate there 🤷‍♀️

@Againstmachine - what is your source for that?

Here is what the Samaritans say: www.samaritans.org/about-samaritans/research-policy/coronavirus-and-suicide/one-year-on-data-on-covid-19/what-do-we-know-about-coronavirus-and-suicide-risk/

@Againstmachine unless you have a much better source, you should be VERY careful what you say there.

@TeddingtonTrashbag

Neither side can claim absolutes and if they are they’re kidding themselves But this is just was the PP mask-zealot claimed. Whay is it that makes people cling so desperately to a totem?

A consensus is not the same as an absolute.

There is a scientific consensus that masks are helpful.

We can't prove it easily because the experiments would risk people getting covid and it wouldn't get past an ethics committee.

what a consensus means is that general evidence has accumulated and putting it all together scientifically, most people in the field would be in agreement with one line of thought, on balance.

It's not about absolutes, but then science usually isn't. Science just means "knowledge" and it is open to changing as more information comes in, so is more fluid and flexible than you might think. But can still come together as a consensus,

nothing to do with zealots and totems (on dear)

Otherwise it could be seen as weaponising in the worst possible terms.