No masks after 19th July - Hoo-blardy-Ray!!!!!

[TeddingtonTrashbag]

As reported in the DM.
So happy if it’s true.

It’s really a sad state of society that some people are celebrating getting rid of their masks without considering the impact on the CEV. Everyone has the right to feel safe without risking their lives.

@Parker231 what would you like?

I don’t see any problem in continuing with masks. It’s no fun but not a disaster. Also hopefully the under 18 will get their vaccinations soon which would help the CEV children.

@TheVampiresWife

The more the merrier! Perhaps bring some gin too and we'll make it a proper party.

Can’t wait to get rid of them. Wearing them for 10 hours a day in work over summer has been horrendous and I’ve still got a month or two to go. Also, most of our clientele don’t wear them so it seems a bit stupid to me to be sweating and panting like a dog while I do manual labour wearing one when people are coming in for all of 3 minutes to buy something without wearing one, anyway.

It’s fine if you’re popping in and out of the shops, but for those stuck wearing them for hours solid every single shift in work… it’s just not fair, anymore. It really is deeply unpleasant after a while.

I’m not looking forward to the abuse I’ll more than likely get when I do stop wearing one, though. There will always be someone who wants to have a pop (actually witnessed said disagreement in work a few weeks ago between a mask wearer and a non mask wearer). I just don’t think you can give off to someone who has to wear a mask for such a long period of time. We need, and deserve, a break. I really do think a lot of front line workers have done more than their fair share of taking risks for the good of others. It’s time to look after ourselves first, now.

My tube station has a women's only waiting room and a mixed one which is a really nice old fashioned idea. I have turfed men out of the women's one in my time.
Risky now - what if their outward appearance is male but they identify as female? You could get into serious trouble

[quote Tealightsandd]@TheVampiresWife

The more the merrier! Perhaps bring some gin too and we'll make it a proper party.
[/quote]
I'm there

@mrshoho

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4289274-What-do-you-plan-to-do-after-July-19th-if-you-have-a-vulnerable-child

The acceptable collateral damage.

Isn’t it rathet insensitive and complacent?

Sungling out covid as an exceptional threat, to the exclusion of other conditions that merit greater attention.

I’m sure it’s well meant, but you’re ignoring cancer, old age care, people with debilitating allergies, etc.. I’d even think about prioritising a token pay rise for NHS staff.

Where’s the perspective gone these days…?

Teddington I am happy to risk it. Also off that women's only changing room is the women's toilet and we don't want men in there either which is part of why I have turfed men out into the right next door mixed waiting room. I bet it is the only set up like that left on London Underground so may be we should keep it secret otherwise it might start being invaded by men's groups. It helps that our borough is minority white so vast numbers like women and men separate anyway including some very strict jews and the large numbers of muslims. It is one reason the single sex private schools around here are thriving too as parents want boys and girls separate as indeed did I.

@xenia...why?

I sometimes feel like I'm in the Upsidedown reading threads in which mask-free life is celebrated quite so excitedly.

I get that it'll be lovely not to have to wear them in some contexts. And I'm genuinely happy for people who couldn't wear one due to medical issues / trauma etc. This must feel absurdly life-changing for you.

But I don't get the extremes of joy and associated resolutions to never wear one again in any context, Praise be! No Stranger Thing, to me (:)), reading these particular exchanges, than...

Pro-mask-er: characterised as neurotic & anxious bc of... well, a focus on the science & the global consensus that agrees that the more people wear masks, the fewer people die...

...Versus the Thank God! group: commonly seen as the more rational & chilled demographic in... well... er... their "I couldn't stand it any longer"s, "Masks prevent me living A Normal Life"s, and "Stop this insanity now, just stop!"s And the rather extreme rationales for this: "If not now, when? Never?" ("Well, er, no; obviously not never. Just when vaccination rates are a bit higher, and infection rates a bit lower. Whatever the ideologically-motivated prats at the top say, it's not a zero sum game.") And, "There's no point wearing them anyway!" (This one does bug me: it's kind of, like, "My GCSE Biology / 6 months elective on viruses / right to believe what I want outweighs the overall consensus of epidemiologists' with years specialising in this, and this alone.")

But, above all, I find it a weirdly Strange Upsidedown experience to read...

19th-July-Never-Again-ers: using terms like "hysteria" to describe those favouring a considered, evidence-based decision to uphold mask-wearing in certain contexts... while expressing their own positive ecstasy at... well... the freedom to not feel uncomfy wearing a bit of fabric on their face on a train (the way some Asian countries have been doing for years as a mere courtesy in cold season). Perhaps compare this conception of freedom to...

...Pro-mask-ers: predicating a more cautious judgement of when they may and may not wear masks on a rather wider and more nuanced definition of freedom - one that includes wearing a mask when possible as a simple gesture that gives the elderly, CEV, CV, immuno compromised etc. etc. the so much more meaningful, literal freedom to go about their normal lives safely, too.

I'll be wearing a mask on trains for them.

@Metacat carry on, you can wear a mask as long as you want, no one will stop you!

Thanks, Attheendof; I don't think anyone really expects someone else to stop them wearing one, though? (Unless you mean the strength of feeling among some planning to ditch them means I may get some abuse? I've not been on the receiving end but have heard of this). I'd do my thing all the same - tough cookie here! Plus, they keep me warm when it's colder! :)

But you know as long as your face is comfortable eh?

Yep I like my face to be comfortable thanks.

Guilt tripping doesn't work, and saying someone might die because someone no wearing a mask is on that level.

That's reassuring to read, Lala... blahblahblah (stopped at the Lala, then realised I'd Telly-tubbied you; wouldn't wish that on my worst... etc.)

I actually live most of the time in a European city full of fabulously uppity sods who speak their mind about individual rights and freedoms at the drop of a hat, yet there's not quite the same extreme anxiety around mask-wearing as there is here; we just do it, with relatively few exceptions, in a number of (increasingly limited) contexts.

That may change, of course, but, for now, in part because of that, we're enjoying a genuine return to normality over there, that's for everyone, including the most vulnerable: rates are under 1000 versus the UK's climb towards 50,000+.

Of course, a hundred and one other factors contribute to this difference in circumstances, but, to me, that's just the point: Covid management has always been about playing the numbers by encouraging individuals to take multiple, simple steps to mitigate collective risk if they can - individually, these steps have limited or even negligible impact, as many, MANY people point out above - but, nationally, they add up to actually meaningful freedom for absolutely everyone. And it's bliss!

So I come back here and see all this tension, this apparent horror at masking up, and, with it - maybe to justify the level of distaste expressed - some seemingly quite casual acceptance of really rather depressing justifications for universal de-masking. "Hospitalisations are under control" is, rather less euphemistically, "A noticeable number of people are becoming seriously ill with this disease, and that's OK." "The death rate's really low and fairly constant" is again, more directly put, "People are dying weekly on a scale that would distress the nation immensely were this eg. a terror attack / Grenfell; however, in the case of Covid, Brits have become inured to this over time and no longer really see - or feel - it that way."

I find it a bit sad. My current country has its issues - boy, does it!; I won't be staying there for ever, I miss here too much - and it also has various advantages in the Covid era... but it's enjoying genuine normality right now partly because, I think, proportionately fewer people there see mask-wearing as suffering/capitulating/"for ever". Normality, to me, needn't involve factoring in "acceptable" cumulative excess deaths, or sacrificing the freedom of a small but significant proportion of a population. There are other ways.

But not, I think, with this government and the momentum it's creating for this particular vision of "normality".

I don't think either side can understand the other on this. For me freedom even freedom if it meant my own risk of death were 1000 x higher and that of my own children is much more important than being forced into a mask. Those on the other cannot even begin to understand.

Agree 100% with Metacat. And with Xenia - I will never understand your aversion to mask wearing.

Xenia, in ways, I do get what you're saying - we're all entitled to our opinions, freedom of speech & movement; "I may not agree with you, but I'll defend to the death your right to..." or whatever it was, etc.

But in other respects...

They said the same about seatbelts - for some at the time, they were a damning removal of personal freedoms heralding God knows what kinds of abuses of power! And some Asians countries see masks as rather liberating. So, time, place, context... If, in your - our - time, place and context, you're prepared to greatly increase your family's risk factors on this point of principle, I'd - personally - gently encourage you to consider whether what's happening supports this perspective.

On the other hand, at least we know we can rely on you when our freedoms are truly threatened; if you feel this way about masks, you'll be leading the storming of Wormwood Scrubs when the first journalist is jailed! I'll be right behind you. :)

(I do think we're going that way, sadly - and, ironically, not because of mask mandates, but because of other, more systematic degradations of democratic checks and balances quietly happening as people are distracted...)

Well, I guess all of the above does, ultimately, just go to prove your point - different perspectives at a complex time...

Metacat yours is an really interesting perspective, and I too find the UK's seeming tolerance of thousands of avoidable deaths, serious illness and long term health problems very depressing.

Some of it is the individualism that years of neoliberalism has done to the national psyche - people feel that they're being 'forced' into masks and would rather have freedom of choice not to wear one even if their actions increase risk of them contracting and transmitting the virus.

The sense of altruism that public health messages created and tapped into so effectively at the beginning of the pandemic has been worn away, not least by the hypocrisy shown by various members of the cabinet, Johnson's ineptitude and increasing social divisions created by wealth inequalities, Brexit etc.

Very sad. Feel very gloomy looking ahead because, for me, just taking action to ensure that my family and I are as safe as possible isn't enough. I want everyone to be as safe as possible and wish the UK government were acting from a public health pov.

The death rate's really low and fairly constant" is again, more directly put, "People are dying weekly on a scale that would distress the nation immensely were this eg. a terror attack / Grenfell;

Just to put that into a comparable context, the death rate’s really low and people are dying weekly on a scale that’s dwarfed by cancer, dementia, heart disease and any number of other illnesses. It compares extremely well with a bad flu year.

@Lalalablahblahblah Let antimaskers have their fun, I suspect it won't last for long - I think masks will be one of the first restrictions to return by September or October, being one of the least intrusive but reasonably effective measures.

@Metacat

Xenia, in ways, I do get what you're saying - we're all entitled to our opinions, freedom of speech & movement; "I may not agree with you, but I'll defend to the death your right to..." or whatever it was, etc.

But in other respects...

They said the same about seatbelts - for some at the time, they were a damning removal of personal freedoms heralding God knows what kinds of abuses of power! And some Asians countries see masks as rather liberating. So, time, place, context... If, in your - our - time, place and context, you're prepared to greatly increase your family's risk factors on this point of principle, I'd - personally - gently encourage you to consider whether what's happening supports this perspective.

On the other hand, at least we know we can rely on you when our freedoms are truly threatened; if you feel this way about masks, you'll be leading the storming of Wormwood Scrubs when the first journalist is jailed! I'll be right behind you. :)

(I do think we're going that way, sadly - and, ironically, not because of mask mandates, but because of other, more systematic degradations of democratic checks and balances quietly happening as people are distracted...)

Well, I guess all of the above does, ultimately, just go to prove your point - different perspectives at a complex time...

Really interesting.

For me, I am prepared to keep wearing a cloth mask in crowded indoor spaces even though I don’t like masks because it’s no hassle for me really. My concern is about the narrative surrounding wearing masks, not so much the masks themselves.

I’m prepared to accept that continued mask wearing is proportionate to the risk covid still poses. I’m not prepared to go along with the narrative of simply accepting that “the ends justify the means” and the government can mandate what it likes as long as it saves lives. I think that is a very dangerous path for society to go down.

So I think there’s a difference between acknowledging that masks are an imposition for lots of people but concluding it’s proportionate for now, and saying “why wouldn’t you FFS you selfish idiot, people are dying”, if that makes sense.

I don’t accept the seatbelt analogy though. Covering your face has a fundamental impact on human interaction in a way that seatbelts don’t. Anyway that’s by the by! The main thing I wanted to say was the first thing.