Vaccine.. another sad story

[BountyIsUnderrated]

I've just read the below article, one little boy left without a mother and the poor father left alone to raise him.

There have been so many stories about this happening I don't know what to feel anymore.. I've been vaccinated myself but I can see why people are scared of the AZ.

It's rare yes but I don't think that would be very reassuring if someone I loved died... Is this the cost of protecting against covid?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9732583/Mother-three-47-dies-AstraZeneca-Covid-jab-caused-blood-clots-brain.html

@HSHorror

I see though at 47she still would get AZ now. Hopefully longer term it can be restricted to 60+ As aside from anything else at least usually wont ave young kids

Yes, just give the over 60s whatever’s going - probably you think their lives are more or less over anyway.

In terms of fatalities according to the quoted table, there is not much difference between the 30-39 and 60-69 groups (though I can’t see anywhere that refers to number of people vaccinated). And I wouldn’t be surprised if more cases hadn’t been missed in older age groups as the issues were not as well recognised when they were vaccinated, and obviously they’re just expected to die anyway.

Awful, her poor kids. The vaccine deaths are higher in women and the average age of dying from AZ vaccine related clots is 46 so why the fuck are we still using AZ in the under 50's? Oh yeah the government bought loads and need to use them up. It's the only vaccine I can have in Scotland so no I'm not having it, I'm a lone parent and have dependent children well, depending on me being alive and well. I've had covid and I was nowhere near as ill as I usually am with the common cold which I've had for 10 days now and has been far worse.

“It is very sad.
But 58 deaths out of 25 million isn't "so many". It's no more common than people in any specific year who would, out of the blue, develop and die from blood clots”

This logic is completely absurd. Think about what you are saying.

You are happy to keep lockdown with a small percentage of covid deaths, but happy to take a jab with a small percentage of deaths…?

You are only interested in “science” fed to you through your TV.

Nuts.

No - as you say it doesnt say the doses given!
It is more common the younger you are hence every other country stopping giving below 55/60....
But yes in a literal sense it's not great for kids to lose their mum if they are under 20. At least 60yo kids would be semi independent.
With the risk being on both vaxs it was hogher than covid risk.
At least for the 60+ the covid risk is also higher.
I do agree though deaths in older people may have been missed - but other countries are still using in those age groups
It also seems higher risk in women.

Im 48 and child free by choice. Easy to see where i would fit in in that hierarchy.

@neveradullmoment99

It's sad but I am just wondering why they are publishing this now? It happened in March/April? Most people are now aware of the jab's contraindications. I find it weird to be publicising this now. Just fearmongering imo.

Just a guess but as there was a post mortem I suspect this went to coroners court which can take a long time and that’s how the media approached the family in the first place.

@PuzzledObserver

I read this thread and the (from some) opprobrium poured on AZ. And I watch the crowd at Wimbledon giving a standing ovation when it is announced that vaccine developers were present (Sarah Gilbert was there).

And my head hurts.

I don't understand this post - the AZ vaccine has saved thousands of lives

It's currently the only vaccine that can be used in developing countries where they don't have the coldchain resources required for the mRNA vaccines

you're acting as if it's some big con @PuzzledObserver ?

@HSHorror autoimmune conditions are more frequent in women of childbearing age for some reason
as I said previously this reaction isn't a straightforward reaction per se its autoimmune the bodies over reaction to infection or inflammation or just itself - the blood clots from corona virus which form & damage other organs may well be another form - cytokine storms do occur in covid & long covid may well be an autoimmune reaction (predominately in young people) I would never put it as coldly as stats but thankfully this horrible reaction is very rare much rarer than major illness & side effects from corona virus note how many people have landed up in hospital with covid from the delta variant it seems they are predominantly in the younger age group this time - what we cannot know is what would have happened to these poor people if they had of contracted covid instead of being vaccinated
to me - they are all victims of the pandemic
By the by, in the 1918 flu pandemic a lot of people died from the most prescribed treatment - Aspirin (overdoses apparently) now that was a major medical mistake not an autoimmune reaction

I do find these stories very sad. The risk assessment is odd, too. It assumes the victim hasn’t had covid, and will contract it AND suffer it catastrophically. Which, for a young female, is highly unlikely and I think the risk assessment declaring “covid is more risky” is wrong.

This is before we even consider the longer term menstrual issues, headaches etc that people also report

I’m glad there is a vaccine but I always assumed it would be for those who needed it. I didn’t realise we would be offering it to people at very low risk, killing some of them and accepting that as ok in our pursuit of near zero covid. I find this terrifying and we have let these victims down. And they won’t even receive compensation of much worth either!

I’m glad there is a vaccine but I always assumed it would be for those who needed it. I didn’t realise we would be offering it to people at very low risk, killing some of them and accepting that as ok in our pursuit of near zero covid

@Roonerspismed

you're mistaken on this one - sadly because coronavirus has turned out to be an absolute mutagenic bastard, mass vaccination is needed just to simply prevent uncontrolled dangerous outbreaks (which will affect everyone), it won't get us near zero COVID.

@leafyygreens

you're acting as if it's some big con @PuzzledObserver ?

On the contrary, I am saddened by the degree of antipathy towards something which has saved thousands of lives and is a big part of enabling the world to overcome the pandemic. To read some of the comments, you would think that the vaccine developers and those involved in getting out there were evil, heartless people who don’t care how many get hurt. I’m sure that is not true. I’m sure that Sarah Gilbert et al are devastated by every case of someone being harmed by their vaccine. But then they pick themselves up and carry on, because they know that those deaths are vastly outnumbered by the lives saved.

If you have lost someone from an adverse reaction, of course you are going to be hurt and angry. But that doesn’t change the fact that, at the population level, giving AZ is the right thing to do.

@Roonerspismed - your idea of what the risk assessments are is certainly odd. Fortunately, you have misunderstood the risk assessments.

If we had enough Pfizer and the Delta variant wasn't running riot then we could ease off on the AZ. But we don't and it is, so the maths have been done. Life's not fare but we are so lucky to have vaccines at all.

That’s the thing - covid seems to mutate rather slowly actually. And I think for younger women, if you looked at actual health risk, the AZ risk would be higher actually in terms of the brain clot issue, and as I said, that’s without the other issues.

The risk assessment overall looks at the benefits for the community and those lost on the way are sadly collateral damage.

I think we should be more open and let people risk assess for themselves. We forget there is also natural infection too. How many of these people had already had covid?

My real worry when the real statistics come out is that we lose trust in vaccines more widely. More and more issues are coming to light with all of them, because the studies were on such low numbers

I’m delighted there is a vaccine and I’m glad those who need it have got it but I’m chilled we are vaccinating any young people and especially children. I think it is disgusting what we are doing

And I think for younger women, if you looked at actual health risk, the AZ risk would be higher actually in terms of the brain clot issue

If you believe this you need to show your work.

I can’t as the MHRA hasn’t (I don’t think yet anyway - I haven’t looked in a week) the full data based on age breakdown.

But I think it’s easy to extrapolate that if you take the 1/50k rate and then look at covid in that age group

And I think for younger women, if you looked at actual health risk, the AZ risk would be higher actually in terms of the brain clot issue

I don't understand specifically what claim you're making here @Roonerspismed

But this risk/benefit analysis was conducted to determine who should be given the AZ vaccine - over 40 year olds are more at risk from hospitalisation from COVID than they are of the very rare CVST event, hence why statistically it is safer for them to take up vaccination rather than wait

For younger people, both events are incredibly rare, but a CVST is slightly higher. This is why they are advised to have one of the mRNA vaccines.

@Roonerspismed it depends what your risk assessment takes into account. If it’s a straight vaccine vs covid for a 30 year old then I can see your point but that leaves out a lot of factors that need to be considered not least that it isn’t a risk assessment based on an individual but one that has to work on a population level, so for everyone that falls into that age range.

The risk of leaving (let’s say) under 40’s unvaccinated means that herd immunity won’t be anywhere near achieved meaning there’s less/no effect on the transmission or R number and the risk those for whom the vaccine fails will still be large enough to overwhelm our hospitals. At that point the risk to the under forties changes to include the repercussions of a shortage of health care and restrictions etc.

I don’t honestly believe it olly (hello again BTW). We have a surplus of AZ and not enough Pfizer and that’s the reason (and why other countries managed to raise their age limit). Because AZ does make sense if you are 70 odd with high blood pressure - I get that. But for a healthy 40 something woman?

cornett I don’t disagree and you are almost agreeing my point. From a community point of view it does make sense. But for certain individuals it does not. And I think the various statements (to persuade people to take AZ) are therefore misleading at best, immoral at worst. And for these families? How will they feel? I have a tiny covid risk and three DCs. I don’t agree with how it’s presented. If I had a risk factor I would take it.

Variants are here and will keep coming and most of my friends were happy to take AZ regardless as were worries about long covid. Fair play to them.

But we are eroding long term trust.

@Roonerspismed another factor is how much COVID is around - the more there is, the more likely any individual is to catch it. So when COVID is widespread, the age at which AZ makes sense comes down. At the time all this stuff about blood clots came out, Covid rates here were many times higher than in the rest of Europe, so the balance of risks was different.

www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/7/693/htm

An interesting study on the safety of covid vaccines.

We could also list the families now without parents due to. Covid.

Like www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55825283.amp

There are, in reality, far more of these than there have been from the vaccines. Doesn't make it better, but it does need being put into perspective.

The risks from covid, are far higher, even for low risk people, than the risks from the vaccine.

The choice is not die from covid or die from AZ.

The choice is have a less risky vaccine or a more risky vaccine. And while the UK is no longer in an emergency situation with regards to covid I personally believe we should no longer use AZ until they have fixed the issue with it.

There have been 68 deaths, many young who were not likely to die from covid. But we don't know the medical condition of all 389 people who have suffered blood clots. Many of those will have life changing health problems. I also believe there will be many, many people having minor health problems, mild strokes etc that will be caused by but not associated with the vaccine. It's too simplistic to say if it doesn't kill you you're fine.

It's okay to support the vaccines and also say let's use caution once we become aware that there is a real problem with one of them.

@ZednotZee

www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/7/693/htm

An interesting study on the safety of covid vaccines.

One which is causing widespread concern, even from the website that published it

twitter.com/MDPIOpenAccess/status/1409506676600971277