Vaccine.. another sad story

[BountyIsUnderrated]

I've just read the below article, one little boy left without a mother and the poor father left alone to raise him.

There have been so many stories about this happening I don't know what to feel anymore.. I've been vaccinated myself but I can see why people are scared of the AZ.

It's rare yes but I don't think that would be very reassuring if someone I loved died... Is this the cost of protecting against covid?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9732583/Mother-three-47-dies-AstraZeneca-Covid-jab-caused-blood-clots-brain.html

@Cindy974

Cornettoninja

And whats your point? I said people are being censored not that particular lady in question.

but they're not?

the thread in question is reported in the DM about a women who died due to the AZ vaccine

credible media won't report stuff they can't back up, but that's not the same as censoring

@Cindy974 my point is you’re not making any point.

Are you trying to tell me that the link you posted wasn’t to illustrate your statement in the same post that people are being censored? The working link to YouTube showing a clip originally screened on Fox News? The one that will ‘probably’ be deleted because of sinister censorship. But hasn’t been.

Certainly @ollyollyoxenfree, I'll find the information that you don't seem able to find for yourself.

In the FDA briefing document issued by Moderna (an mRNA vaccine) it was stated (Dec 2020, pg 44) The possibility that the vaccine contributed to the SAE reports of rheumatoid arthritis, peripheral edema/dyspnea with exertion, and autonomic dysfunction cannot be excluded.

The document is here (it's a PDF download, so don't click if you don't want it to download, it's safe): www.fda.gov/media/144434/download

Since then other potential links, particularly with rheumatoid arthritis, have been reported, such as in this article in the lancet that describes the flare up of rheumatoid arthritis in a patient who was in clinical remission: www.thelancet.com/journals/lanrhe/article/PIIS2665-9913(21)00108-9/fulltext

To be clear - the article isn't stating a link, it is suggesting a link and concedes that the flare up may be coincidence. The FDA has considered the link in other briefing documents that you can find yourself - to be clear they have considered the link based on the small amount of evidence available and the known mechanism.

I know what your next objection will be - that there isn't evidence around the long term effect. Yes, due to the short amount of time that has elapsed since the introduction of the vaccines, there isn't long term data, however, as I've detailed before scientists, ie people who aren't just making it up, have suggested there may be a link and there is a small amount of research evidence to back up the possible link.

I'm done now with providing you with articles. You don't need to agree with me. The point still stands that no one, no you and not I and not anybody, knows the long term consequences of injecting people with mRNA.

Cornettoninja

No, there was a discussion about long term effects so I posted the video to show a personal story. There was another link I went to post but by the time I did it was removed by YouTube which is why I mentioned the censorship, which is happening. Ive seen so many examples and just because that video is still up now it might not be in a few days time.

@TheDailyCarbunkle

Certainly *@ollyollyoxenfree*, I'll find the information that you don't seem able to find for yourself.

In the FDA briefing document issued by Moderna (an mRNA vaccine) it was stated (Dec 2020, pg 44) The possibility that the vaccine contributed to the SAE reports of rheumatoid arthritis, peripheral edema/dyspnea with exertion, and autonomic dysfunction cannot be excluded.

The document is here (it's a PDF download, so don't click if you don't want it to download, it's safe): www.fda.gov/media/144434/download

Since then other potential links, particularly with rheumatoid arthritis, have been reported, such as in this article in the lancet that describes the flare up of rheumatoid arthritis in a patient who was in clinical remission: www.thelancet.com/journals/lanrhe/article/PIIS2665-9913(21)00108-9/fulltext

To be clear - the article isn't stating a link, it is suggesting a link and concedes that the flare up may be coincidence. The FDA has considered the link in other briefing documents that you can find yourself - to be clear they have considered the link based on the small amount of evidence available and the known mechanism.

I know what your next objection will be - that there isn't evidence around the long term effect. Yes, due to the short amount of time that has elapsed since the introduction of the vaccines, there isn't long term data, however, as I've detailed before scientists, ie people who aren't just making it up, have suggested there may be a link and there is a small amount of research evidence to back up the possible link.

I'm done now with providing you with articles. You don't need to agree with me. The point still stands that no one, no you and not I and not anybody, knows the long term consequences of injecting people with mRNA.

eh, you seem to be having an argument with yourself, I asked for the articles not the PP

I'll take a look now

I am confused as your earlier argument was about adverse effects that happen a long time after vaccination. You've now linked evidence the FDA considered a causal link between the vaccine and RA, but this was in the short term?

Since then other potential links, particularly with rheumatoid arthritis, have been reported, such as in this article in the lancet that describes the flare up of rheumatoid arthritis in a patient who was in clinical remission: www.thelancet.com/journals/lanrhe/article/PIIS2665-9913(21)00108-9/fulltext

This second article is about flare ups in patients with RA? It's not suggesting the vaccine causes RA in healthy people?

@Cornettoninja

The FDA considered a link between mRNA vaccination and the later onset of rheumatoid arthritis for example - there's nothing conclusive on that one but there is a plausible mechanism for it to happen

To bring up my earlier question again - how could this possibly be verified after a length of time and a lot of additional variables to rule out? What kind of time scales are we talking about for a legitimate link to be able to be established?

If the vaccine were in clinical trials then there would be enough controls, with double-blind placebo groups to identify emerging side effects in the vaccinated groups over time. Side effects are being tracked, but of course there isn't the same control because the whole population is being vaccinated (with some exclusions) so it will be very hard to track outcomes. It'll still be possible to extrapolate the effects - eg if people who get mRNA vaccines have a higher than expected rate of autoimmune disorders when compared with those who received other vaccines for example - but it'll take a long time for the evidence to emerge. Of course if millions are vaccinated that any widespread effect will be very obvious because there will potentially be thousands of cases.

@speckledostrichegg

I am confused as your earlier argument was about adverse effects that happen a long time after vaccination. You've now linked evidence the FDA considered a causal link between the vaccine and RA, but this was in the short term?

Since then other potential links, particularly with rheumatoid arthritis, have been reported, such as in this article in the lancet that describes the flare up of rheumatoid arthritis in a patient who was in clinical remission: www.thelancet.com/journals/lanrhe/article/PIIS2665-9913(21)00108-9/fulltext

This second article is about flare ups in patients with RA? It's not suggesting the vaccine causes RA in healthy people?

Did you read what I wrote? I have answered these questions already.

If the vaccine were in clinical trials then there would be enough controls, with double-blind placebo groups to identify emerging side effects in the vaccinated groups over time. Side effects are being tracked, but of course there isn't the same control because the whole population is being vaccinated (with some exclusions) so it will be very hard to track outcomes

As per standard protocol, the vaccines have been through clinical trials. These haven't been cut short because it's an emergency scenario.

The possibility of rare side effects when you roll out a drug/vaccine to a much a bigger sample of people is well known.

@speckledostrichegg

If the vaccine were in clinical trials then there would be enough controls, with double-blind placebo groups to identify emerging side effects in the vaccinated groups over time. Side effects are being tracked, but of course there isn't the same control because the whole population is being vaccinated (with some exclusions) so it will be very hard to track outcomes

As per standard protocol, the vaccines have been through clinical trials. These haven't been cut short because it's an emergency scenario.

The possibility of rare side effects when you roll out a drug/vaccine to a much a bigger sample of people is well known.

Clinical trials have been carried out, but they have absolutely been cut short because it's an emergency scenario. No secret has been made of that.

It's more accurate to say that they haven't been cut short, but that the vaccines have been approved on an emergency basis before the trials have been completed. So trials are ongoing while the vaccine is being administered.

Thanks for the explanation @TheDailyCarbunkle. Much appreciated.

Clinical trials have been carried out, but they have absolutely been cut short because it's an emergency scenario. No secret has been made of that.

Urm, this is completely incorrect? Has been discussed a fair bit on this forum, a search will bring up explanations as to how they were developed so quickly compared to standard vaccines

hint: it was not by missing stages or cutting anything short

@Cindy974, that makes sense but that wasn’t clear in your post. I wasn’t the only one who interpreted it that way.

Am also 47 and just had my 2nd dose of AZ yesterday

My heart goes out to the woman's family. But it wouldn't stop me getting vaccinated. Your chances of getting a blood clot are far higher if you catch COVID. COVID makes the blood very sticky. So whilst any risks associated with the vaccine are not ideal, it's still a better option than leaving yourself exposed to COVID. Lesser of two evils imo.

@speckledostrichegg

Clinical trials have been carried out, but they have absolutely been cut short because it's an emergency scenario. No secret has been made of that.

Urm, this is completely incorrect? Has been discussed a fair bit on this forum, a search will bring up explanations as to how they were developed so quickly compared to standard vaccines

hint: it was not by missing stages or cutting anything short

I clarified in my next post - the trials weren't cut short but approval was given before they were completed. They are ongoing. That's not a secret, like I say - I don't know how anyone could believe clinical trials were fully completed before the first vaccines were administered - there physically wasn't enough time to cover all the protocols no matter how quickly they went.

What's the purpose of these type of threads? There are approx 10,000 deaths a week in the UK.

@paddyk

What's the purpose of these type of threads? There are approx 10,000 deaths a week in the UK.

Desperate attempt to discourage people from getting vaccinated.

That's pretty ruthless considering the thread was originally about a young mother who has died.

Clinical trials have been carried out, but they have absolutely been cut short because it's an emergency scenario. No secret has been made of that.

Not only is that incorrect, but the logic of "despite all the exhaustive and extensive testing and data from the roll-out to literally hundreds of millions worldwide, it's still not been reviewed enough" is a bit like saying:

"A car is driving towards me. I could jump into the bush to stop me from being knocked over, but I won't as I haven't done a full investigation and risk assessment of what's in that bush, so better I'm knocked down by the car than me risk the possibility that the bush might have a snake or some broken glass in it, because you never can be too careful!"

@PoseyFlump, agree, but OP's intention was clear from the start, by saying "Is this the cost of protecting against covid?"

@roguetomato I believe there's a difference between being anti vaccine and wanting to talk about one vaccine in particular that has had a higher rate of deaths. These poor families deserve to be heard yet I imagine many of them feel pressured into remaining silent for the good of the nation. It's heart breaking all round.

[quote PoseyFlump]@roguetomato I believe there's a difference between being anti vaccine and wanting to talk about one vaccine in particular that has had a higher rate of deaths. These poor families deserve to be heard yet I imagine many of them feel pressured into remaining silent for the good of the nation. It's heart breaking all round. [/quote]
I'm not seeing that though?

Every death is a tragedy and they're reported widely on BBC news, daily mail. Discussion around the risks versus benefits of all the vaccines is a topic that is debate here daily, it's when people start throwing false claims around about safety or the vaccine development process that it becomes problematic.

there's a difference between being anti vaccine and wanting to talk about one vaccine in particular that has had a higher rate of deaths

All vaccines come with a very small risk of harm though.
When you say a higher rate of deaths, higher than what?

[quote PoseyFlump]@roguetomato I believe there's a difference between being anti vaccine and wanting to talk about one vaccine in particular that has had a higher rate of deaths. These poor families deserve to be heard yet I imagine many of them feel pressured into remaining silent for the good of the nation. It's heart breaking all round. [/quote]
Well, tbf, given the OP, they most definitely are being heard.
I'm interested in hearing the poster from yesterday who had evidently seen the death certificate as, unless she is a family member, that seems highly improbable.