Vaccine.. another sad story

[BountyIsUnderrated]

I've just read the below article, one little boy left without a mother and the poor father left alone to raise him.

There have been so many stories about this happening I don't know what to feel anymore.. I've been vaccinated myself but I can see why people are scared of the AZ.

It's rare yes but I don't think that would be very reassuring if someone I loved died... Is this the cost of protecting against covid?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9732583/Mother-three-47-dies-AstraZeneca-Covid-jab-caused-blood-clots-brain.html

@Cindy974

I wish people would give up on the comparison to seatbelts, its not the same in the slightest. I don’t want to take a vaccine that has no long term safety data. Thats quite simply the end of it and my decision.

You only get long term data when people take the jab.

I mean what you're basically saying is that you're happy other people are taking the risk so you don't have to. Doubly selfish when you work in healthcare.

@Cindy974

I wish people would give up on the comparison to seatbelts, its not the same in the slightest. I don’t want to take a vaccine that has no long term safety data. Thats quite simply the end of it and my decision.

…or maybe your logic is flawed.

The comparison doesn’t make any difference at all to whether or not you choose to have a vaccine but it does highlight the risk profile of covid. By saying the insight you have from working frontline has given you the perspective covid isn’t something that you worry about is basically saying that covid doesn’t have the capability of causing serious illness and death.

It’s not a massive leap from that to covid denial to a reader tbh.

MrsTerryPratchett

Wondered how long it would take for the selfish argument to insults to come out. Nobody was forced to take the vaccine, everyone has made a choice and my choice is to not take the vaccine. Im breastfeeding my daughter and I don't feel there has been enough research into breastfeeding mothers and the effect on the child, if that makes me selfish then so be it.

I was asked for 'evidence' @ollyollyoxenfree, so I posted that piece from an article from 2018 on mRNA vaccines, which details the need for vaccines to have 'extremely stringent' safety requirements and also has information about the potential long term negative effects of mRNA vaccines indicated by previous research.

Cornettoninja

I don’t deny covid exists but statistically its not a risk for me. I worry more about cancer and heart disease which is what I’m most often surrounded by, this is why I choose to not drink or smoke and lead a healthy lifestyle.

@TheDailyCarbunkle

I was asked for 'evidence' *@ollyollyoxenfree*, so I posted that piece from an article from 2018 on mRNA vaccines, which details the need for vaccines to have 'extremely stringent' safety requirements and also has information about the potential long term negative effects of mRNA vaccines indicated by previous research.

which is reassuring?

You linked a review article from 2018 which highlights how vaccine development is a stringent process- this is true and the unusual protocols were followed when developing the pfizer and moderna vaccines.

It states the theoretical risks, what has happened in previous studies, and how safety should be evaluated. As I have said in pps, this is why you run in vitro and animal studies first - to test for adverse effects. The pfizer and moderna vaccines did not cause problems in pre-clinical phases, hence why they were continued to human trials, and then rolled out to the general population.

also has information about the potential long term negative effects of mRNA vaccines indicated by previous research.

Don't see a single statement in the article you linked regarding previous studies that have found long term negative effects of mRNA vaccines? @TheDailyCarbunkle

@Cindy974 which is fair enough.

Given that we currently live in a climate where tensions are high and there is a fairly strong movement that denies covid is a risk at all it’s not surprising that people (myself included) would seek to correct any presumptive statements that they feel could be interpreted to suit that particular agenda despite evidence to the contrary.

I don’t particularly care about those choosing not to take the vaccine since it doesn’t look like it’s going to have a massive impact on our current take up. I don’t like the minimising of why covid has had such heavy and far reaching consequences for the past eighteen months though. On an individual level it’s not a massive issue but adding credentials like ‘working on the frontline’ to validate your stance does add gravitas that wouldn’t exist if you made the same statement without it.

@ollyollyoxenfree

also has information about the potential long term negative effects of mRNA vaccines indicated by previous research.

Don't see a single statement in the article you linked regarding previous studies that have found long term negative effects of mRNA vaccines? @TheDailyCarbunkle

I put it in bold but here it is again:

However, recent human trials have demonstrated moderate and in rare cases severe injection site or systemic reactions for different mRNA platforms22,91. Potential safety concerns that are likely to be evaluated in future preclinical and clinical studies include local and systemic inflammation, the biodistribution and persistence of expressed immunogen, stimulation of auto-reactive antibodies and potential toxic effects of any non-native nucleotides and delivery system components. A possible concern could be that some mRNA-based vaccine platforms54,166 induce potent type I interferon responses, which have been associated not only with inflammation but also potentially with autoimmunity

* For* me I'm young and healthy and I might catch covid I might not and if I do and become seriously ill well thats just unfortunate and bad luck. However if I purposefully get a substance injected into my body that causes long term/short term issues or even death thats my fault and the blame lies on me
I'm not sure you'd feel the same with hindsight.
When I was 19, slim, fit and very healthy - I caught the flu. I recovered from that flu pretty quickly but it switched something in my immune system and I was diagnosed with Rheumatoid Arthritis. I was left with a life long disability that has meant I have been in pain to some extent every day for over 20yrs. I have spent time in a wheelchair, long periods on crutches, it made career, relationships and family and being an independent adult incredibly difficult and has made me reliant on some extremely scary medication for life.
If I could go back and risk a vaccination that could have prevented that I would jump at the chance. Funnily enough I'm now eligible for the flu jab due to my medication.
Everyone thinks it'll never happen to me.
The risks of death from Covid for

The risks of death from Covid are for the young pretty small, the risks of the vaccine even smaller. However the risks of long Covid seem to be far higher and from what I read for some people it seems to be fairly to similar to the route I have followed - the illness triggers an autoimmune disease.
My auto immune disease is for life, it will probably shorten my life but will definitely affect me everyday for the rest of it and I find it astounding how easily some people dismiss that - spend some time in the shoes of people who live through that and you may dismiss it with less haste.

It seems to be the case @ollyollyoxenfree that you feel less than a year of testing is sufficient for a completely new vaccine. Given that mRNA vaccines have in the past raised the concerns detailed above, I don't feel that less than a year of testing is sufficient. No one can say at the moment which one of us is correct. If, in a few years' time, there are few or no long term effects from mRNA vaccines then your position will have been correct. If it turns out there are significant long term effects, then my caution will seem justified and everyone who's had a vaccine will be in a position of worrying whether they will suffer those effects. I am fine with everyone making their own judgement call on it, but I totally disagree with vaccines being presented as safe when there just isn't the data to say that one way or the other.

I put it in bold but here it is again:

However, recent human trials have demonstrated moderate and in rare cases severe injection site or systemic reactions for different mRNA platforms22,91. Potential safety concerns that are likely to be evaluated in future preclinical and clinical studies include local and systemic inflammation, the biodistribution and persistence of expressed immunogen, stimulation of auto-reactive antibodies and potential toxic effects of any non-native nucleotides and delivery system components. A possible concern could be that some mRNA-based vaccine platforms54,166 induce potent type I interferon responses, which have been associated not only with inflammation but also potentially with autoimmunity

...none of these are long term effects @TheDailyCarbunkle?

Yes they are @ollyollyoxenfree.

the biodistribution and persistence of expressed immunogen,
stimulation of auto-reactive antibodies
potential toxic effects of non-native nucleotides
potent type I interferon responses

These are all effects that take time to be expressed. They are long term effects - they don't happen immediately after vaccination.

@TheDailyCarbunkle

Yes they are *@ollyollyoxenfree*.

the biodistribution and persistence of expressed immunogen,
stimulation of auto-reactive antibodies
potential toxic effects of non-native nucleotides
potent type I interferon responses

These are all effects that take time to be expressed. They are long term effects - they don't happen immediately after vaccination.

Nope, I can categorically say they are not effects that will emerge after a long time period - they are not long term effects

you won't suddenly have an autoimmune response after 6 months ("stimulation of auto-reactive antibodies") - a good example is the CVST autoimmune reaction associated with AZ vaccine. This emerges in a relatively short time window, which is why it has already been detected.

Equally, "potential toxic effects of non-native nucleotides" - the foreign mRNA is translated and degraded within days. It won't suddenly reappear and cause toxic effects months later.

I could go on.

BTW I posted about the 'extremely stringent' safety requirements because in the case of covid vaccines those safety requirements have been circumvented via emergency authorisation. So normally there is a very high requirement of safety, because you are injecting healthy people, but in the case of covid, the vaccine is killing people and it's still being used. That would not normally happen - if the vaccine was still in the trial process, which it would be under normal circumstances - the deaths would stop the trial process and the vaccine would not continue to be tested until the cause of the deaths was found and mitigated. Ethical approval would never be given to inject people with something known to cause death.

wonkylegs

Im sorry that happened to you and I truly do hope things improve for you.
Ive looked at both sides as there are risks with any preventative treatments old and new but for me I would still decline the vaccine. Just today a video was posted on Twitter of a young American girl who has suffered life changing effects from the covid vaccine, I’ll try find the link if it hasn’t been deleted by now, but adverse effects from taking a vaccine vs adverse effects from catching covid or the flu just worry me more and that is just personal to me.

The auto immune response in the AZ vaccine is in no way similar to potential auto immune responses in the Pfizer vaccine - they are completely different medications and therefore not comparable in terms of outcomes. It is known from other trials of mRNA technology that the effects of mRNA can be long term - the effects can arise a year or more after use. The point with the vaccines is that they just don't know what might happen - the data simply isn't there. Incidentally that's also true of the AZ vaccine. There are immediate effects, as with the clotting but they have no idea if there could be long term effects.

We could go on and on, but as I said, you're convinced of the safety, I am not. I won't be convinced until there is actual data.

@ollyollyoxenfree

Can't some autoimmune diseases be developing for some time before they cause symptoms?

There is more chance of dying of a blood clot from the contraceptive pill than of the AZ vaccine. Ever taken the pill op?

@TheDailyCarbunkle

The auto immune response in the AZ vaccine is in no way similar to potential auto immune responses in the Pfizer vaccine - they are completely different medications and therefore not comparable in terms of outcomes. It is known from other trials of mRNA technology that the effects of mRNA can be long term - the effects can arise a year or more after use. The point with the vaccines is that they just don't know what might happen - the data simply isn't there. Incidentally that's also true of the AZ vaccine. There are immediate effects, as with the clotting but they have no idea if there could be long term effects.

We could go on and on, but as I said, you're convinced of the safety, I am not. I won't be convinced until there is actual data.

sigh @TheDailyCarbunkle

No I'm not "convinced of the safety" - I'm stating there is no evidence, or biological rationale, for mRNA causing long term side effects

I'm pointing out that you have absolutely zero evidence the mRNA can cause long term side effects, despite your attempts to copy and paste sections of manuscripts.

...is known from other trials of mRNA technology that the effects of mRNA can be long term - the effects can arise a year or more after use. where is you evidence for this?

@TheDailyCarbunkle do you expect to ever have the kind of data that you’re looking for? What kind of timescale are you expecting?

Surely as time goes on it becomes harder to link what might be long term reactions back to a vaccine because there are so many variables that take place in the meantime especially if the reaction isn’t uniform - autoimmune issues are incredibly varied and common how would you pick out one caused by a vaccine and one that occurred due to other reasons?

You're making wild claims without any evidence to back them up @TheDailyCarbunkle You keep stating there's evidence that mRNA cause long term adverse effects but haven't linked a single piece of evidence.

Vaccines causing autoimmune diseases has long been a myth spread by anti-vaxxers - Wakefield, Clannsen, Richard Halvorsen and others have been keen to propagate these stories, despite there being no robust evidence to suggest this is the case.

It is unsurprising that stories of this and infertility being caused by the coronavirus vaccines regularly do the rounds on social media.

There are literally hundreds of articles @ollyollyoxenfree. Here's one of them: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7833091/

To help you out, here are some relevant quotations:
Viruses are notoriously involved in the pathogenesis of autoimmune diseases [2], and the authors reasonably conclude that such a cross-reactivity might lead to the development of immune-mediated disorders in COronaVirus Disease-19 (COVID-19) patients in the long term. The authors also suggest that a similar scenario might take place following COVID-19 vaccination.
Vaccine-associated autoimmunity is a well-known phenomenon attributed to either the cross-reactivity between antigens or the effect of adjuvant [3]. When coming to COVID-19 vaccine, this matter is further complicated by the nucleic acid formulation and the accelerated development process imposed by the emergency pandemic situation [4]
Although the results from phase I and II/III studies have not raised serious safety concerns [5], the time of observation was extremely short and the target population not defined. Reported local and systemic adverse events seemed to be dose-dependent and more common in participants aged under 55 years. These results presumably depend on the higher reactogenicity occurring in younger people that may confer greater protection towards viral antigens but also predispose to a higher burden of immunological side effects.
The reactogenicity of COVID-19 mRNA vaccine in individuals suffering from immune-mediated diseases and having therefore a pre-existent dysregulation of the immune response has not been investigated.
Besides the mechanism of molecular mimicry, mRNA vaccines may give rise to a cascade of immunological events eventually leading to the aberrant activation of the innate and acquired immune system.
Prior to the translation, mRNA may bind pattern recognition receptors (PRRs) in endosomes or cytosol. Toll-like receptor (TLR)3, TLR7 and TLR8 are able to recognize chains of double-stranded (ds)RNA or single-stranded (ss)RNA in endosomes, while retinoic acid-inducible gene-I (RIG-I) and melanoma differentiation-associated protein 5 (MDA5) may detect short and long filaments of dsRNA in the cytosol. The final result is the activation of several pro-inflammatory cascades, including the assembly of inflammasome platforms, the type I interferon (IFN) response and the nuclear translocation of the transcription factor nuclear factor (NF)-kB [7].
Importantly, the up-regulation of these immunological pathways is widely considered to be at the basis of several immune-mediated diseases, especially in genetically predisposed subjects who have an impaired clearance of nucleic acids.
Until proven otherwise, the administration of a nucleic acid vaccine may instead put these individuals at risk of unwanted immunological side effects by either sensitizing the PRRs or generating cross-reactive cell clones and antibodies. Moreover, COVID-19 mRNA vaccine might differently stimulate myeloid or plasmacytoid dendritic cells (DCs), generating an unbalance in the downstream cytokine pathways that play a crucial role in autoimmunity and autoinflammation [3].

ollyollyoxenfree

People are suffering horrendous long term effects but they are being censored. How is it okay to censor an individual’s experience with the vaccine whether it be good or bad?

t.co/fklMq9Cchy?amp=1