What is the actual law around isolating children (ie when a school bubble closes)?

[rubbishatballet]

DC1 (7) now on second isolation period on the trot due to bubble bursting, having had two days back at school in between. No symptoms but will not have been able to leave the house for change of scenery or proper exercise for four weekends in a row. Assuming we're following the rules...

BUT I am heartily sick of this now. Between the four of us we have had 12 periods of self isolation over the last year, including when we all had Covid. Most vulnerable people are now vaccinated and I feel incredibly angry that young children's lives and education are still being so interrupted.

I know the DC obviously can't go to school while a bubble is closed but theoretically if we were to just do our own thing outside of that time, including sorting out alternative childcare on a risk assessed basis (trying to do our NHS management jobs and home school is just a complete shit show) would we just be going against guidance or actually breaking the law? Pretty sure test and trace are not informed when a school bubble closes - we have never been contacted. Interested to know how much trouble we could potentially be in if found out, although not sure I actually care that much anymore anyway.

When my ds was isolating I took him for walks in the countryside where we managed to not come into close contact with anyone. Am expecting them to be sent home at any moment and will do the same (prepare to get flamed).

Regardless of the school thing it's absolutely not right that children should be put under house arrest, for 10 days at a time, time and time again.

I have a friend whose kids got covid recently, now recovered. The chances of them getting it again and passing it on now are surely about zero (though of course that might be different in a few months time).

*Because the school can only send home close contacts by themselves, they are incentivised to say everyone was a close contact to avoid having mixed in/out classes, having to employ cover teachers etc.

So there's currently a strong financial incentive for schools to make every kid isolate.

But yes, if a school says someone was a close contact, even if they were not even in the school at the time, there is no mechanism to appeal, and it is illegal to not isolate.*

Absolutely agree with this. And the fact there is no form of redress is ridiculous! Our school have made multiple mistakes with their who’s in/out policies, to the extent that multiple parental complaints resulted in them backing down and allowing children who’d been told to isolate one day back in the next last week. In the meantime, we’re supposed to put up and shut up, not do our own keyworker roles, so the madness goes on. Currently got one DC still off as they were in a bubble of 120!!! 4 classes out… 🙄

Vulnerable kids are not at any additional risk of covid

The data proves that

@Lettuceforlunch

*Because the school can only send home close contacts by themselves, they are incentivised to say everyone was a close contact to avoid having mixed in/out classes, having to employ cover teachers etc.

So there's currently a strong financial incentive for schools to make every kid isolate.

But yes, if a school says someone was a close contact, even if they were not even in the school at the time, there is no mechanism to appeal, and it is illegal to not isolate.*

Absolutely agree with this. And the fact there is no form of redress is ridiculous! Our school have made multiple mistakes with their who’s in/out policies, to the extent that multiple parental complaints resulted in them backing down and allowing children who’d been told to isolate one day back in the next last week. In the meantime, we’re supposed to put up and shut up, not do our own keyworker roles, so the madness goes on. Currently got one DC still off as they were in a bubble of 120!!! 4 classes out… 🙄

If only the government had given extra money to schools to support them with the process.

Mistakes will be made. Schools are doing their best with no additional money or support.

@ineedaholidaynow

And not all the vulnerable have been vaccinated as there are many vulnerable children who haven’t been vaccinated. And schools are doing their utmost to protect them and their families whilst there are other parents who don’t give a shit about them or COVID

Vulnerable children will unfortunately also be vulnerable to many other contagious childhood diseases, but we don't keep whole year groups of children at home for one case of eg chicken pox, RSV or norovirus

@yeahdarling - some are, I do believe that. But not all. I’ve seen too many examples of covid being used as an excuse. I know it’s not a popular opinion to hold on here but that’s my lived experience.

I guess if we're spotted by anyone out of the house with DC they could report? Or obviously different house in background for live lessons? I think those are my two main concerns.

I doubt the teacher would notice a different background, and most houses have more than one room.

@rubbishatballet I know, we also have to rely on parents doing the right thing when it comes to those illnesses too, and I assume the parents who don't care about the COVID rules are also the ones who don't adhere to the 48hr rule re D&V

[quote Lettuceforlunch]@yeahdarling - some are, I do believe that. But not all. I’ve seen too many examples of covid being used as an excuse. I know it’s not a popular opinion to hold on here but that’s my lived experience.[/quote]
That's fair enough. I guess it's another example of differences between schools.

My experience is our office manager and slt working solidly over half terms and weekends contacting parents etc

For the record our school are amazing, I am in awe of the way they have handled all this and their general can-do attitude. But I can also see that their hands are tied when it comes to a lot of this stuff.

[quote ineedaholidaynow]@rubbishatballet I know, we also have to rely on parents doing the right thing when it comes to those illnesses too, and I assume the parents who don't care about the COVID rules are also the ones who don't adhere to the 48hr rule re D&V[/quote]
I always adhere to the 48hr rule for d&v but also think that forcing whole classes or year groups to isolate for 10 days for one case of Covid is unnecessary. So I don't think your assumption is correct.

I know our local schools have had to close classes/school for D&V when it seems to be going round in circles, so to break the cycle of infection and do a deep clean

Op musing on your worry over a fine I googled how many have received fines.

‘Figures show 272 £10,000 fines have been handed to organisers of mass gatherings of more than 30 people, including illegal raves, parties and protests, in England, with three in Wales, while 485 £800 tickets have been issued to people attending gatherings of more than 15 people.

A total of 2,344 fines were issued for breaches of face coverings regulations between June 15 and February 14 in England, including 456 on public transport and 1,888 in relevant places such as shops.’

I think the press would like a story of a big fine (or any fine really) in your circumstances but very unlikely.

Not saying either way but maybe knowing numbers will help you decide

Thanks @MarshaBradyo that's reassuring to read. We don't really have any option other than to use childcare (double vaccinated MIL) for at least some of this week anyway as there's literally no way either of us can do our jobs whilst supervising home school/live lessons for two children. Could cover one child at an absolute push but with work being significantly compromised. Neither of us can take any more leave as the hospital we both work at is in meltdown (in no small part due to the number of staff having to SI or cover childcare for their SI children! 🤯)

And there's no way I'm keeping a healthy 7 year old confined to the house for the best part of four weeks, so we will also be going out for exercise and a change of scene. I'll just have to try not to dwell too much on the cost of all the missed swimming lessons, music lessons and various other planned activities...

School have to decide close contacts under direction of PHE

but PHE just go "who are the close contacts, right send 'em all home" and potentially "oh, that's your umpteenth positive, let's close the school"

They don't go, so Fred never talks to George because they hate each other and sit on the opposite sides of a "covid secure" class room and don't mix so George is fine, however Wilma was snogging Fred behind the bike sheds so she needs to go.

The PHE direction is just "okay, isolate the contacts" or "okay close the school".

Should also have added - biggest risk of all re getting found out is DCs (5 and 7) telling people where they've been and who they've seen!

That's my main issue too! Luckily my child was at her grandparents when we got the call, so when we go back at the end of the week and for the weekend, her teachers and friends already know that she was there during part of her isolation.

We live right by the park. My child sitting in the window crying about everyone else in the park this weekend, when we could just be staying at grandma's is not going to happen.

If ds is told to self isolate because of school contact, we won't be keeping him indoors. We are happy to keep him away from other people - we have been doing that for 10 years due to his autism- but I won't distress him by keeping him indoors for 10 days.

I agree about the effect on under-18's physical and mental health.

There are also secondary effects because the more bubbles your child is in, the higher the chance of getting asked to self-isolate.

So to reduce the risk, some people have whittled down their children's activities to just school.

I am reluctant to send DC swimming because that is another bubble with other children from 15+ other schools.

What happens if one of them gets a positive result? Does everyone at swimming lesson have to isolate also? Does each sporting activity (inside and outdoors) can carry a risk of isolating if someone later gets a positive test?

@sirfredfredgeorge

School have to decide close contacts under direction of PHE

but PHE just go "who are the close contacts, right send 'em all home" and potentially "oh, that's your umpteenth positive, let's close the school"

They don't go, so Fred never talks to George because they hate each other and sit on the opposite sides of a "covid secure" class room and don't mix so George is fine, however Wilma was snogging Fred behind the bike sheds so she needs to go.

The PHE direction is just "okay, isolate the contacts" or "okay close the school".

Exactly. Pass the buck onto schools.

@vaccinesforall

I agree about the effect on under-18's physical and mental health.

There are also secondary effects because the more bubbles your child is in, the higher the chance of getting asked to self-isolate.

So to reduce the risk, some people have whittled down their children's activities to just school.

I am reluctant to send DC swimming because that is another bubble with other children from 15+ other schools.

What happens if one of them gets a positive result? Does everyone at swimming lesson have to isolate also? Does each sporting activity (inside and outdoors) can carry a risk of isolating if someone later gets a positive test?

Definitely this. I have only just started my reception-aged DD at a trampoline club (doesn't do anything else extra-curricular) because I've been worried (and still am especially considering the increase in cases) about her being in contact there with someone and therefore having to isolate and miss school. Which I think would be even more awful for her if it's a contact outside of school as she would be the only one missing school!

She has had to isolate twice for being a 'close contact' of someone in her year (they consider both classes as one bubble). I took her out for walks both times. We live in the countryside so didn't come across anyone else either time. Chance of her actually having Covid = very small statistic X chance of her passing it on to a theoretical person we may pass in the fresh air for a few seconds = very small statistic. Overall chance = incredibly small statistic. 🤷‍♀️

When I say she was a close contact, I mean the whole year had to isolate. I know the first case was a boy in the other class who she isn't even friends with.

DC1's current isolation is connected to a bubble from an extra curricular (but still school) activity, and he is the only one in his class isolating. Extra rubbish for him.

Oh dear.

I was hoping sport might be exempt.

Surely football would be an outdoor sport with minimal contact in the fresh air.

What about swimming lessons in outdoor pools?

These scenarios seem to be exempt IMHO, but are they in reality?

Even DC's swimming indoor sessions are taking place in dilute bleach with all the fire doors open plus air conditioning.

I would love to send them, but have too much going on workwise to risk even more isolations.

Oh that’s really tough op that he’s the only one.

Did the school know already or did you tell them?

My year 5 and my year 6 have just been sent home again sigh.

Just booking a caravan break right this minute we are not fucking staying at home again !!!!