Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure

[ToTheLetter01]

Before i begin, i am not an anti vaxxer. Me and my DS have had all our jabs and we also have annual flu jabs.
However i feel such hostility and pressure from people who have had their vaccine for me to have it. The reason i do not want it at this moment is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023 and i would like to know more long term data.
This is my choice, its my body and everyone should have the choice. Choice to have the vaccine and choice to not. I do not shame nor ridicule anyone for having it or not.
However i have felt so much pressure from friends and others in the wider public, media, government.

I feel like the nation is becoming split between us and them. ( vaccinated and unvaccinated). With things becoming unfair for people. Eg. may be able to travel and not quarantine if had vaccines, care home workers may be forced to have the vaccine. Now i get the point of view of they have had it and may be more "safe". But how is the ok in a freedom and rights point of view. As i stated freedom to do what you want with your body.

I feel like this world is becoming some kind of dystopian world. I miss my old life, i took all the freedom for granted. Its true that you don't realise how good it was until it's gone.
I don't want people to be hostile to me because of my choice to wait for long term data on the vaccine. Half of me wants to lie to people i've had it so they will not be stand off towards me.

@Hornbill123456789

I’ll say it again! Yes it does impact the young because of the knock on effect on ALL health services when a hospital is overwhelmed.

And young people being infected will not overwhelm hospitals because they are at very low risk of being hospitalised. Seriously, how are you not getting this?

And young people being infected will not overwhelm hospitals because they are at very low risk of being hospitalised. Seriously, how are you not getting this?

Young people can transmit the virus to the not so young who haven't been vaccinated.

@bumbleymummy no the old, the vulnerable, the unvaccinated, the single dosed, and the double vaccinated for whom the vaccine doesn’t work MAY overwhelm the hospital. This then has an impact on services for the old AND young. In addition - I know 2 mid thirty year olds who have been hospitalised with Covid, and a man in his forties who was in intensive care with Covid. So it’s not JUST the elderly. And they all need bed space and resources.

I also know a family member who had PIMS in the second lockdown. She was 10 years old at the time.

The 80% I referred to was adult antibody levels from the ons and was a combination of vaccination and natural immunity - I wasn’t citing 1st dose figures.

Ah ok, apologies. However I think there are still challenges here - firstly the modelling around delta, and secondly whether presence of antibodies (eg from a single dose of vaccine) is a good indication of where we are. I just don’t know. And I think we probably still need to be higher to have. A

I was looking round for the article you mentioned and there was an interesting one in Nature - was that it? It listed five challenges to reaching herd immunity - one was if vaccines didn’t affect infection and secondary transmission - so we’re better off on that one - vaccination/immunity in kids (definite challenge and the US will be interesting to watch) and vaccine hesitancy. Variants are the big worry for me in whether we can get on top of this.

It may be that true herd immunity is currently out of reach. But wouldn’t it be great to try to get as close as possible, keep cases low, reduce the risk of variants again and maybe, maybe one day I’ll get to see my family again.

@Hornbill123456789 Again, to remind you of your original point...

You stated that there is a 'very real and high risk from covid.'

and I replied - "Except covid isn’t very high risk for young, healthy people."

I'm really not sure how you've gotten to a place now where you're telling me that old, vulnerable, vaccinated and unvaccinated people are all going to overwhelm hospitals because covid is high risk for young, healthy people (which it just isn't). And you're not exactly presenting a good case for being vaccinated when you've just said that hospitals are going to be overwhelmed by vaccinated people anyway.

@JassyRadlett

The 80% I referred to was adult antibody levels from the ons and was a combination of vaccination and natural immunity - I wasn’t citing 1st dose figures.

Ah ok, apologies. However I think there are still challenges here - firstly the modelling around delta, and secondly whether presence of antibodies (eg from a single dose of vaccine) is a good indication of where we are. I just don’t know. And I think we probably still need to be higher to have. A

I was looking round for the article you mentioned and there was an interesting one in Nature - was that it? It listed five challenges to reaching herd immunity - one was if vaccines didn’t affect infection and secondary transmission - so we’re better off on that one - vaccination/immunity in kids (definite challenge and the US will be interesting to watch) and vaccine hesitancy. Variants are the big worry for me in whether we can get on top of this.

It may be that true herd immunity is currently out of reach. But wouldn’t it be great to try to get as close as possible, keep cases low, reduce the risk of variants again and maybe, maybe one day I’ll get to see my family again.

I know the Nature article that you're talking about but I think it was another one. It may have been written when there was still uncertainty about the vaccine impact on transmission - the models may have underestimated it and were therefore giving an impossible-to-achieve herd immunity threshold.

I think the ONS are giving antibody levels above a specific threshold but do say that this doesn't mean that this is not necessary a guaranteed protective level (but also add that it doesn't mean that people below the threshold aren't protected)

As long as cases aren't causing serious illness/death, I don't see them as a problem. Recovered people will also be contributing to herd immunity.

As long as cases aren't causing serious illness/death, I don't see them as a problem. Recovered people will also be contributing to herd immunity.

Ah, that’s where we differ. I see unnecessary viral replications as a big problem, because that’s how we get new variants, and I’m more worried by variants than anything else. Not on a personal level, but for our wider recovery, my family and friends’ jobs, my kids’ education and not least because my home country is even more shit scared of variants than they are of Covid and I would really like to fucking see them again sometime.

And I think that variants are inevitable - particularly when other parts of the world still have very high infection levels - and could potentially be a good thing if one (or more) is less virulent.

And I think that variants are inevitable - particularly when other parts of the world still have very high infection levels - and could potentially be a good thing if one (or more) is less virulent.

I agree they’re inevitable - long term - but the less transmission there is, the fewer mutations there will be and the less chance of a competitive variant emerging. We can slow this right down.

I’d love a less virulent variant that could also out-transmit delta so it had a selection advantage. I have no clue how likely it is but it I wouldn’t want to encourage more and faster variants in the hope we strike it lucky, because we very much might not.

Agree on the international picture - we need to get vaccines everywhere, fast.

Young people can transmit the virus to the not so young who haven't been vaccinated.

But they can still do this once vaccinated can’t they? Otherwise why are double vaccinated people still being told to self isolate after being in contact with a Covid carrier?

"we need to get vaccines everywhere, fast"

Which we could do faster if we weren't focussing on younger, healthier people who are unlikely to become seriously ill and instead vaccinated the older/at risk groups in the rest of the world.

@AmyVindaloo Yes, a lot of people seem to overlook that recovery from infection also confers immunity and that these unvaccinated people are also contributing to herd immunity. All the people infected in the last year were the first to contribute!

But they can still do this once vaccinated can’t they?

Oh I’m going to cry. This again?

Vaccination stops the majority of vaccinated people from getting infected. Lower for delta but still a majority (and figures for AZ May be low as it takes longer to have full effect.)

Vaccination also prevents a significant level onward high risk transmission (household) from the minority of those vaccinated people who do get infected.

Otherwise why are double vaccinated people still being told to self isolate after being in contact with a Covid carrier?

Partly, I suppose, because a small risk still exists and we have growing transmission.

But probably more because the government has made a policy decision for universal measures regardless of vaccine status. The same on masks, distancing, indoor mixing, etc.

Other countries are making different choices - like mask recommendations from the CDC, or France dropping quarantine for the fully vaccinated.

But they can still do this once vaccinated can’t they? Otherwise why are double vaccinated people still being told to self isolate after being in contact with a Covid carrier?

This is a tricky one for me. I agree on under 18s. But the transmissibility of delta changes the rest of the equation for me. A lot of transmission, nearly double the hospitalisation - and the vaccine is not 100% effective. Even a small percentage of a large number can still be a large number that puts too much pressure on health systems and other serious problems.

@bumbleymummy
The elderly are at more direct risk from Covid, the young the risk is more indirect. We are ALL still at risk from Covid, the knock on effects of Covid - mutations and potential new variants.

This concerned me:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/20/under-18s-could-be-reservoirs-for-virus-when-all-adults-are-jabbed-expert-warns

@Dustyboots

Young people can transmit the virus to the not so young who haven't been vaccinated.

But they can still do this once vaccinated can’t they? Otherwise why are double vaccinated people still being told to self isolate after being in contact with a Covid carrier?

The government are conducting trials to look at changing the guidance on this so that those who have had both vaccine doses will not be required to isolate as a close contact of a positive case provided they test daily.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/two-covid-19-vaccines-may-20857403.amp

@Sunshinegirl82 I just read the Guardian piece on that and was coming to share it. I do think it’s right that where vaccination or other immunity significantly reduces a person’s risk to others, that should be reflected in the restrictions placed on them.

[quote JassyRadlett]@Sunshinegirl82 I just read the Guardian piece on that and was coming to share it. I do think it’s right that where vaccination or other immunity significantly reduces a person’s risk to others, that should be reflected in the restrictions placed on them.[/quote]
I agree that it makes sense, especially when combined with daily testing. You may miss some cases of course but I suspect that is the case now in any event as not everyone who should isolate will do so (due to being unwilling or unable to do so).

@Hornbill123456789 sorry but what even is this? How is this actually helpful?

The drive to vaccinate all adults over the age of 188^ in the UK could lead to the concentration of Covid-19 cases in schoolchildren, a leading British virologist has warned.

Okay they have my attention and I am sufficiently scared. Tell me what to do now.

79% rise in cases

people were optimistic...

HOWEVER. Scientist added a note of caution.

Still not getting to the point of what we need to do.

Something about increasing pressure to vaccinate children although no reference for who this pressure is coming from, Liz Truss says no plans, inequality and unfairness of that criticised by global health leaders (rightly so imo).

Then a final note about new restrictions needing to be clear.

Is this... journalism these days? What was the purpose of that article? Can you imagine being bombarded with this shit every single day from astronomers in the mainstream media, just a constant barrage of 'X warns of this meteor' 'Y says we haven't seen the last of this shower' 'Z predicts super meteor 'could' be end of life as we know it.'

Or climate change but with literally zero substance on the 'so what do we do then, expert?' aspect of the article?

Mumsnet user warns sky could actually be green. But if there's no alternative then what does it actually matter? Vaccinate babies and the reservoir is RoW, stop at age 18 and the reservoir is under 18s. Any way you cut the pie there seems to be a warning of a potential reservoir here.

I think maybe the problem is me and I should just check out of mainstream media. Fucking basic

@JassyRadlett

But they can still do this once vaccinated can’t they? Otherwise why are double vaccinated people still being told to self isolate after being in contact with a Covid carrier?

This is a tricky one for me. I agree on under 18s. But the transmissibility of delta changes the rest of the equation for me. A lot of transmission, nearly double the hospitalisation - and the vaccine is not 100% effective. Even a small percentage of a large number can still be a large number that puts too much pressure on health systems and other serious problems.

Exactly It’s incredible how pp just don’t get how the maths has changed isn’t it? seriously how are they just not getting this😉

They claim to KNOW everything will be fine (whilst still actually bein against vaccines) yet experts aren’t quite calling it yet

Funny that

@JassyRadlett This is a tricky one for me. I agree on under 18s. But the transmissibility of delta changes the rest of the equation for me. A lot of transmission, nearly double the hospitalisation - and the vaccine is not 100% effective. Even a small percentage of a large number can still be a large number that puts too much pressure on health systems and other serious problems.

I feel like you might have got further on untangling this than the guardian reporter, so kudos to you. Let me know where I can sign up for email alerts please

I jest but honestly not really... 🙈

[quote JassyRadlett]@Sunshinegirl82 I just read the Guardian piece on that and was coming to share it. I do think it’s right that where vaccination or other immunity significantly reduces a person’s risk to others, that should be reflected in the restrictions placed on them.[/quote]
Absolutely.

Ah @winched thanks 😂😂