Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure

[ToTheLetter01]

Before i begin, i am not an anti vaxxer. Me and my DS have had all our jabs and we also have annual flu jabs.
However i feel such hostility and pressure from people who have had their vaccine for me to have it. The reason i do not want it at this moment is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023 and i would like to know more long term data.
This is my choice, its my body and everyone should have the choice. Choice to have the vaccine and choice to not. I do not shame nor ridicule anyone for having it or not.
However i have felt so much pressure from friends and others in the wider public, media, government.

I feel like the nation is becoming split between us and them. ( vaccinated and unvaccinated). With things becoming unfair for people. Eg. may be able to travel and not quarantine if had vaccines, care home workers may be forced to have the vaccine. Now i get the point of view of they have had it and may be more "safe". But how is the ok in a freedom and rights point of view. As i stated freedom to do what you want with your body.

I feel like this world is becoming some kind of dystopian world. I miss my old life, i took all the freedom for granted. Its true that you don't realise how good it was until it's gone.
I don't want people to be hostile to me because of my choice to wait for long term data on the vaccine. Half of me wants to lie to people i've had it so they will not be stand off towards me.

It feels embarrassing to say one has a phobia of needles when you know that people will scoff and say 'it's just a little prick, over before you know it'. And I know that's true, but it doesn't change my absolute terror of injections. I've been a needle-phobe since around 12 years old, and haven't had an injection since then. I will do anything to avoid it, and that's embarrassing to say. The very first thing I thought when I heard there was a possible pandemic on the way was 'oh God, someone is going to stick a needle in me!', I kid you not.

I have thought about what if there's a nasal version of the vaccines. I believe AZ are working on a nasal spray, it's basically the identical ingredients but sniffed. I would agree to a nasal immunisation, but am not keen on AZ due to the side effects. Then on top of my phobia, I am very worried about what effect these vaccines may have on my autoimmunity. A number of thyroid people I know have had their labs go wonky after the jab. As far as I can tell it's not a permanent thing, but all the same, what's up with that. So even in the light of a nasal spray vaccine, I would still have to consider my position.

It has helped a little that I've had Covid and have antibodies to it, at least I don't feel like I could infect people any more than someone who's been vaccinated could.

It is a difficult subject but we do need to consider the ins and outs of why some of us do not want to be vaccinated, or are very hesitant. We are not all raging anti-vaxxers or tin foil hatters.

When asked I tell people I have chosen not to have it. My choice.

My fear of medicine is due to trauma that began after the death of a parent as a child - and various incidents that have followed.

It's all mixed up with defiance and anger and rebellion - probably stemming from that early trauma too - but now tied up with distrust of this government etc

It's hugely complicated. I think about things a lot and question things a lot. So I'd say I have a phobia of mainstream medicine definitely - but also a well considered distrust. Somebody suggested I have hypnotherapy to get over my phobia - but that wouldn't work because whilst I am irrationally fearful, I'm also rationally distrustful.

@Xenia

When asked I tell people I have chosen not to have it. My choice.

Why? For someone as well educated as you are I am puzzled by your stance.

@RedToothBrush

Mostly, yes. That and the fear of side effects etc.

Of course, someone will be sure to chime up with "the needle is tiny" or "if you hate the vaccine needle, you will hate the needles you will face when you get Covid and end up in hospital"

I have heard it all.

Xeno, can I turn the question on its head a little?

If you can have the vaccine via another means other than needle would you have it?

What side effects bother you most? Why do you think you are particularly vulnerable to having those side effects?

And finally, if you were to have an injection, what would be a scenario which would help you to do this (eg, would having it in a certain setting on your terms help, would you like some sort of councilling / chat / consultation about this issue before hand - or even a nice chat to build a relationship with the vaccinator first with them understanding you might decide not to go through with it - maybe some kind of needle phobic clinic or some other thing you might find helpful)

My point being how could this be made easier for you and how do you think you might find a way to cope with it? And how these are the types of conversation we should be having - finding people who aren't entrenched but perhaps are facing barriers which perhaps carry a certain about of stigma/lack of understanding.

Good points. Maybe a nasal spray version like the flu vaccine for children

Good points.
Maybe a nasal spray version like the flu vaccine for children

They are being worked on... but there are screams from folk that it is not soon enough.. and to just suck it up and take the needle.

@Dustyboots

www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2020/L-December/Public-trust-in-scientists-and-vaccines-likely-to-be-damaged-by-COVID-19

This is an interesting article that goes into the study of epidemic-induced distrust and how it translates into lower compliance with public health policies and negative views towards vaccines.

I have said this on other threads but I genuinely believe this pandemic, aside from health and economic consequences, is going to leave a legacy surrounding science which will end up… harmful? Dangerous?

We’ve created something in science, and scientists, that I don’t think scientists would ever have wanted in a pre-pandemic world.

The ideas that A) science is factual. B) science is always right. C) there is ‘best science’ and ‘worst science’ and the category it falls into is based on some unknown factor which has stopped being solely about the methods used to formulate the hypothesis. D) Everyone is supposed to blindly follow the science without question. E) Anyone who doesn't lacks education / critical thinking, or are conspiracy theorists / tin hatters.

None of these things have ever been expected of us or science until, apparently, now.

Just as this mindset that anyone not being completely altruistic is shunned as selfish has never happened until, apparently, now.

This worries me more than covid does tbh.

That's an interesting article @winched

I've already thought that people will see vaccines in a different light after the pandemic and trust scientists less - but perhaps that's just me and those similarly minded to me - although this article suggests it could be more widespread.

If we have lost our freedom its because we as a people have allowed ouselves to lose it. We are more in danger of losing out right to free speech and democracy from the snowflake BLM and WOKE brigades than the virus.

Im currently reading A State of Fear by Laura Dodsworth. Ive just passed Chapter 18, she talks about a yougov poll which was done at the end of September last year.

One question was "would you support mandatory vaccines.

The next question was "would you support prosecutions or fines for those who dont take the vaccine" I didnt even realise this poll took place but im absolutely horrified.

"But you don't care about putting vulnerable people at risk. You only talk about assessing the risk to you.

Actually I think the flu vaccine should be mandatory for care workers. However, remind me of the last time flu or the common cold were classified as a pandemic"

@ilovesooty The vulnerable people you profess to care about, are just as much at risk from flu ( I know because my DH is one of them. And i am sick of him being used as emotional blackmail by people who couldnt give a fuck worth a damn before) They arent only at risk when something is a pandemic. Surely you realised that I think this proves you are only either worried about yourself or when you can next go on holiday. Your mask has slipped!

@MercyBooth, please try to make your points without launching personal attacks on others.

I have my flu jab every year (first week of December at Boots) Im 48 and cant have the AZ but at the mo there is a shortage of Pfizer. So havent had mine yet. DH is 71 and does not want to have it. With him its due to a lack of trust from an incident which occurred in the mid 2000s. Which caused a medical crisis that i was left to deal with and i eventually had to call a paramedic because it was escalating. This eroded his trust and mine. Which is why im not opposed to the vaccine but still on the fence and he just does not want it.

Trust takes a long time to earn but seconds to lose.

@MercyBooth

Im currently reading A State of Fear by Laura Dodsworth. Ive just passed Chapter 18, she talks about a yougov poll which was done at the end of September last year. One question was "would you support mandatory vaccines. The next question was "would you support prosecutions or fines for those who dont take the vaccine" I didnt even realise this poll took place but im absolutely horrified.

Yougov is just a market research company, I wouldn’t worry too much about that. When you fill in the ‘chat’ you get to see how others have voted when you’ve answered the question. It’s like AIBU, really. Not representative.

I’ll keep saying this!

An individualistic response to Covid is not going to help. Harnessing our collective altruism WILL help us beat Covid. The book ‘A State of Fear’ is coming from a highly individualistic perspective.

“Loving freedom” is hard to measure, but it’s related to the concept of individualism. This cultural trait emphasises personal freedom and standing out, and celebrates individual success. Its opposite is collectivism, which accentuates the embeddedness of individuals in a group and stresses the need to support and learn from the social environment.

As far as phobia of needles
is concerned , the last time I was st the vaccine centre there were two chaps in this category. My advice would be to tell your GP and get some Valium to take, to go with someone trusted and to tell staff on arrival. Different centres handle this differently but we have beds in a quiet area for fainters and those with fears.
Very few people have medical reasons not to have the vaccines but those that do can almost always take the other class of vaccine.
The virus is being spread by those that mix so children and young people but also unvaccinated older adults and yes, probably to a much lesser extent there is some spreading by the vaccinated.
I think low numbers of deaths currently are making people complacent and giving the luxury of being choosy about the vaccine .The same factor is also causing people to be less vigilant about distancing and , most worrying, people aren't getting pcrs and isolating the family when one member has a cough, a temperature or a loss of taste or smell. I see this all the time at work and judging by the numerous threads on here it is widespread. It is not 'just a cold' until proven otherwise and a lft is not appropriate.
Those working with the vulnerable should be vaccinated and almost all will be with encouragement and education. Those that still don't want the vaccine should find other employment.
This is an unprecedented event in our lifetimes and it is up to everyone to do their best to eradicate it for ourselves and for our communities, DC, elderly relatives , businesses , NHS etc.
The pressure is from the pandemic a d the 'us and them 'need only be there if you want it to be.

Firstly, vaccines do clearly massively reduce transmission. This should not even be a debate. If a disease with a ‘natural’ r number of 6 is giving rise to an r number of 1.2, something is clearly stopping it from spreading, and that something is mainly not disease acquired immunity.

We have had cases where people have been found criminally liable for having unprotected sex when HIV positive, without telling their partners. So much for absolute bodily autonomy.

Now, there is a difference between deliberately spreading a disease and refusing a vaccine, but not as much as some would argue.

If you don’t get vaccinated, you have more chance of getting infected, and thus spreading the disease, and maybe killing others. As the absolute probability is low, refusing a vaccine may only lead to you ‘killing’ 0.0001 person, but over a population, significantly more will die.

@Hornbill123456789 excellent post above makes a key point. Only on very good times can we act entirely individualistically. When we face an existential threat, we have to work together to defeat it.

Vaccines are similar to tax. Why should I be forced to pay my money, which I could use to give my own family more, to help poor people? Why were people condemned for (legally) avoiding tax or moving to a tax haven?

@MercyBooth

I have my flu jab every year (first week of December at Boots) Im 48 and cant have the AZ but at the mo there is a shortage of Pfizer. So havent had mine yet. DH is 71 and does not want to have it. With him its due to a lack of trust from an incident which occurred in the mid 2000s. Which caused a medical crisis that i was left to deal with and i eventually had to call a paramedic because it was escalating. This eroded his trust and mine. Which is why im not opposed to the vaccine but still on the fence and he just does not want it.

There is not a shortage of Pfizer, if your GP puts you forward for an appointment then you'll get it, or if you go to a walk-in centre offering it then you'll get it.

I can't understand why needing a paramedic for a serious illness would lead to a conclusion that someone shouldn't take vaccines to prevent illness, but that's his choice. Unfortunately there will be a few people at higher risk like your DH who don't vaccinate and may get very unwell if they get covid, then people like my friend who are traumatised from over a year working with ICU patients will have to look after him. Whatever you do, don't mention it on mumsnet when it happens because I don't think you'll get sympathetic responses.

@Hornbill123456789 Harnessing our collective altruism WILL help us beat Covid.

How? A virus isn't a sentient being. It will simply keep infecting hosts as long as there are opportunities to do so. Eventually it may mutate so that it's far weaker and therefore doesn't trouble the host too much, at which point humanity will lose interest in it.

Which disease has been beaten by altruism?

Ramp, one reason I do answer when asked (although there is no obligation to answer such a rude personal health question akin to have you had an abortion or how often do you have sex) is because people think those in my demographic never refuse the vaccine. It is important people know.

What are my reasons? Many. I tend not to take medicines unles I need to. I have arms because my mother refused thalidomide when offered it in 1961. I have never even been on the contraceptive pill. I take about one headache pill every 10 years. I never seem to get ill - eg seen my GP for 7 minutes ni 15 years kind of never get ill so doing things my way seems to work. Some people who have the vaccine are ill for 2 days so I would be risking increasing my being ill rate by about 1000 times or whatever.....

Also it doesn't last for life for all versions of the virus, where as all the other jabs we are all always had as a family are of that kind or at least offer massive protection for long periods with the childhood boosters. I even paid £400 for the twins to have the BCG as teenagers because the NHS had stopped giving it in our area despite TB still being around as I wanted them to have the same protection as their siblings. So I am certainly not anti vax.

Nor should this post be used to make up people's mind. I only answer because I was asked. This is a new vaccine and those who had it in Dec 2020 will be having to have it again presumably this winter so I might as well not make my mind up and bide my time.

Another reason - I have worked from home since 1994. I do go to a food shop but I am not socialising so compared with some in other jobs my chance of getting it are low and I have always washed my hands well after being out and that kind of thing.

I don't do queues ever and sometimes you queue for the vaccination. Also I have never felt so at odds with the state and since March 2020 I have not supported the lockdown measures, any of them as I think personal freedom even with much higher risk of death is better although I have continued to work very hard to pay a lot of tax. As I declare over £450k a year profits before tax there was no furlough help either as sole traders unlike limited company and unlike employees got zilch. Sunak seems to hate the honest who declare all profits for tax and do not even avoid it via a company.

There are probably other reasons too. I have not refuse forever. I still have the letter and might change my mind at some point.

I also respect the views of those who choose to have it and I understand the point that some would say I was a potential killer by not having it. I would also accept a state decision that those refusing it can be denied NHS care (as the NHS never seems to be there for our family when we need it I am not sure that would be a huge loss although you can never say, might be in a car crash etc... although I never drive over the speed limit and mostly do tiny local journeys locally so that could be unlikely too).

Anyway if you want to have it have it. If you don't, don't. If your employer does not insist you have it then just make your own choice. Always remember you have no obligation to answer the question when asked too.

And an excellent post from you @TheReluctantPhoenix

And you can see the results here of a government who don’t believe in masks/vaccines and distancing. 11% of population vaccinated. 500 000 deaths.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/19/fresh-protests-in-brazil-against-bolsonaros-handling-of-covid-pandemic

Vaccines are similar to tax

I disagree. Vaccines are substances introduced into one's body - that's something entirely different.

@CrunchyCarrot

I’ve copied and pasted here:

While individualistic societies may have an edge in fostering radical innovation, Hofstede argues they are at a disadvantage when it comes to rapid collective action and coordination. This is because people there are encouraged to have different views, speak their mind, and question and debate decisions. Building the consensus needed for policies to work may take longer.

Altrusism = the collective action needed to reduce the spread of infection.