Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure

[ToTheLetter01]

Before i begin, i am not an anti vaxxer. Me and my DS have had all our jabs and we also have annual flu jabs.
However i feel such hostility and pressure from people who have had their vaccine for me to have it. The reason i do not want it at this moment is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023 and i would like to know more long term data.
This is my choice, its my body and everyone should have the choice. Choice to have the vaccine and choice to not. I do not shame nor ridicule anyone for having it or not.
However i have felt so much pressure from friends and others in the wider public, media, government.

I feel like the nation is becoming split between us and them. ( vaccinated and unvaccinated). With things becoming unfair for people. Eg. may be able to travel and not quarantine if had vaccines, care home workers may be forced to have the vaccine. Now i get the point of view of they have had it and may be more "safe". But how is the ok in a freedom and rights point of view. As i stated freedom to do what you want with your body.

I feel like this world is becoming some kind of dystopian world. I miss my old life, i took all the freedom for granted. Its true that you don't realise how good it was until it's gone.
I don't want people to be hostile to me because of my choice to wait for long term data on the vaccine. Half of me wants to lie to people i've had it so they will not be stand off towards me.

Oh and I'm not naturally compliant thank you very much. Generally quite the opposite and was bombarded with anti vax and conspiracy theory etc on facebook from certain quarters so complying would have been going alone with that fearful and paranoid and selfish narrative.

Oh and I am vaccine hesitant. I left ds's MMR 2 years longer than you're meant to because I was worried about how many he'd had in his short life plus I'd read that the mumps element has generally worn off effectiveness by the time boys are at the most vulnerable age to catch it because it's done so young. I'm not proud of that I'm saying so as to show that I understand vaccine hesitancy, I understand anxiety (panic attack history here and they seem to be returning with hot flushes in mix now I'm peri menopausal) so this isn't a lack of empathy or being naturally compliant or not understanding anxiety.

But there's an epidemic and old people were dying at over 1000 people a day here at points - get over yourself territory basically. And if you can't at least don't criticise the people who have and are responsible for the fact you're not in lockdown right now.

But Xeno you have genuine mental issues that are recognised and extreme and as I'm sure you're aware, very rare, so you're not someone whose just refusing to have it. So why are you sticking up for those people? They're entirely different to you.

@RedToothBrush
Thank you for your carefully written considered posts. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do. I had a bit of an awful time in 2019 with having to have a hysterectomy due to massive (galia melon sized) fibroids and then I was diagnosed with invasive breast cancer 4 months later. I've had surgery and radiotherapy and had a terrible time of it when (not) healing because my body rejected the dissolvable stitches so I needed secondary surgery to resolve that. I have a history of migraine, I've previously had a blood clot, I couldn't take the combined pill and I've previously had an anaphylactic shock from a medication.

Covid hit when I was about to do my phased return to work so I've been mainly WFH and not had the chance to talk to many people about what happened to me and how I feel.

I'm loads better and doing some fitness and going into work again now and having a social life but I can't bring myself to have the vaccine. Even the thought of a sore arm is beyond me. It took months before I could lift my arms above my head and I don't want to go backwards. I don't want to deliberately put anything into my body that might make me unwell. My risk of being seriously unwell with Covid is tiny, and quite honestly I don't care about dying. It's going to happen one day whatever. I really don't have much fear about Covid at all.

I'm not entirely sure why I'm rambling on like this but I think you're absolutely right, us vaccine hesitant people need time and space. Not accusations of being anti-vaxxers or selfish or somehow unclean. It's much more nuanced, personal and thoughtful than that.

Xeno I get the phobia part.

But you’re actually better off if others get vaccinated so you could not suggest not to.

@MarshaBradyo

Xeno no I wouldn’t say that. I have claustrophobia and arachnophobia and if I had to do something to avoid a potential it wouldn’t help me do it. I’d also do anything to avoid it as treatment. So I do get this part.

The side effects - honestly they were minimal one day. What do you think they might be?

The phobia part have you ever had to overcome it? If so what helped

I have read of so many people have side effects. It scares me to have something injected that I would perceive is doing me harm.

I used to work in the NHS so had all the jabs. I had to have the last appointment of the day in the OH department, with an hour slot with 2 nurses. Even then, I walked a few times and never went through with it. I can look at needles, I can handle them, and I can inject other people. If one is coming for me.... just no.

Since then, I have had very traumatic experiences with needles etc (see my previous post) that has made things a ton worse.

It is upsetting to see anyone anxious about the vaccine (for phobia or health anxiety reasons) get written off as a refuser who does not care about society.

@Sensateria

I’ve been vaccinated but I’m aghast at some of the vitriol I’ve seen directed on here and on social media towards those that are choosing not to have the vaccine.

It’s your body, your choice and I accept and support that.

Yup. Me too.

@TheHoneyBadger

But Xeno you have genuine mental issues that are recognised and extreme and as I'm sure you're aware, very rare, so you're not someone whose just refusing to have it. So why are you sticking up for those people? They're entirely different to you.

My bodily autonomy was stripped from me. I would stand up for anyone who feels that the same is happening to them, regardless of their reasons.

Thanks for sharing . So as I suggested there is still no confirmed evidence it stops transmission and the evidence of reducing it is currently marked as low confidence. Therefore, both vaccinated and non vaccinated should surely take the same precautions until we have more evidence

@Nerdygirl did you look at the report linked by PP? It explains how vaccines reduce transmission and listed several independent studies that replicate this. Copied below.

There's also the study I linked from Israel in response to your post which I think you might've missed
www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01316-7

Effectiveness against transmission
As described above, several studies have provided evidence that vaccines are effective at preventing infection. Uninfected individuals cannot transmit; therefore, the vaccines are also effective at preventing transmission. Data from Scotland has also shown that
household contacts of vaccinated healthcare workers are at reduced risk of becoming a case, which is in line with the studies on infection (15). There may be additional benefit, beyond that due to prevention of infection, if some of those individuals who become
infected despite vaccination are also at a reduced risk of transmitting (for example, because of reduced duration or level of viral shedding). A household transmission study in England found that household contacts of cases vaccinated with a single dose had approximately 35 to 50% reduced risk of becoming a confirmed case of COVID-19. This study used routine testing data so would only include household contacts that developed symptoms and went on to request a test via pillar 2. It cannot exclude asymptomatic secondary cases or mildly symptomatic cases who chose not to request a COVID-19
test (16).

@nerdygirl

There's plenty of evidence that vaccines are effective in reducing transmission.

www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/mounting-evidence-suggests-covid-vaccines-do-reduce-transmission-how-does-work

oh and here's a recent pre-print of analysis from long term care facilities in spain:
www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.08.21255108v2

Our findings provide evidence that high-coverage vaccination is the most effective intervention to prevent SARS-CoV-2 transmission and death among LTCFs residents. Conditional on key factors such as vaccine roll out, escape and coverage across age groups, widespread vaccination could be a feasible avenue to control the COVID-19 pandemic.

It seems some vaccine hesitant people are determined to hold on to the uncertainty there was when vaccines were first introduced that there was a lack of evidence that vaccines prevent transmission. I'm guessing that's the case as recognising that vaccines will reduce transmission undermines their position significantly!

The thing with anxiety and phobias which i have some experience of is they can be accommodated if the person is willing - you could be prescribed some valium (like people with fears of flying do when they have to make a trip) or be allowed to take someone in with you or be offered it in your own home at a small fee to cover the staffing.

So I don' think it's really about phobia of a needle or doctors - presumably people got over these things in order to have their children or to undergo a surgery they needed etc but have a lack of will to do so for this vaccine.

I thoroughly disagree with this actually.

Again it doesn't understand the range or degree to which some people with phobias have a problem.

You are coming from an angle where you percieve it to be something you can take drugs for or is relatively mild.

The thing with phobias is that sometimes sedation would be completely inappropriate because the loss of power/control is one of the panic inducing triggers - so its just not an option for some.

You also get levels of avoidance where people would rather literally die than get medical attention. One of the things when I got pregnant was they were worried that I would fall into this catergory and was at risk of trying to freebirth alone (they've had cases like this).

You can't just 'switch it off' just like you can't just cheer up if you have depression. The idea that if you are 'just willing' is deeply offensive. There are sometimes things that can help but I also think that for some its so extreme, that you are never going to get anywhere with it. Certainly not in a one off situation like having a vaccine without some considerable ground work for weeks if not months before.

There is generally widespread understanding and acceptance of depression these days but I don't think the same is true at all of anxiety - which includes phobias and avoidance behaviour particularly at the more extreme end of the scale.

There are also scenarios where what someone feels ok doing makes no sense whatsoever. For example I'm fine with injections and having blood taken. But ask me questions or take my blood pressure or just have me in a room with a doctor or nurse where I don't feel in control or what will happen and I turn into a mute quivering wreck.

Its irrational. Thats kind of the point. Though it may be deeply rooted in something rational like a response to a poor or traumatic previous experience.

I really get the flight or fight feeling. I have it (as below phobias), one dc has a phobia and I’d never minimise, force or dismiss.

@Hamilbamil

It seems some vaccine hesitant people are determined to hold on to the uncertainty there was when vaccines were first introduced that there was a lack of evidence that vaccines prevent transmission. I'm guessing that's the case as recognising that vaccines will reduce transmission undermines their position significantly!

No I think vaccine refusers are doing that and aren't open to the evidence which is emerging. The hesitant who are genuinely fearful seem to have greater complexities at play.

@Hamilbamil

It seems some vaccine hesitant people are determined to hold on to the uncertainty there was when vaccines were first introduced that there was a lack of evidence that vaccines prevent transmission. I'm guessing that's the case as recognising that vaccines will reduce transmission undermines their position significantly!

I think it relieves your guilt when you think your choice won't affect anyone else. That's the truth of it. Although I should add it doesn't 100% stop transmission. Up to 50%. So if someone gets Covid it's not definitely from someone who's not vaccinated. I think I need to get off this thread. Have a good night all .

I agree OP. I feel very upset that my choice makes me the target of so much anger, particularly because I have worked as a key worker in school throughout the pandemic, right from the beginning when we knew very little about the virus, and what danger it presented to us individually. I taught vulnerable and key worker children and opted into the rota voluntarily, whilst many were terrified and stayed home. Now I’m suddenly considered selfish and that I’m an enemy of society rather than a contributor to it. Quite upsetting, actually.

I think it relieves your guilt when you think your choice won't affect anyone else.

That assumes people have guilt that needs to be relieved, though?

Imagine a world where everyone felt guilt for any choice that detrimentally affected someone else. We'd all be walking around laden with guilt 24/7, to the point it would probably become unbearable.

It's all well and good saying everyone needs to behave altruistically when it comes to covid restrictions and vaccines, but that's just not the case for any other part of society and nobody has any guilt that needs to be relieved over that.

*The thing with anxiety and phobias which i have some experience of is they can be accommodated if the person is willing - you could be prescribed some valium (like people with fears of flying do when they have to make a trip) or be allowed to take someone in with you or be offered it in your own home at a small fee to cover the staffing.

So I don' think it's really about phobia of a needle or doctors - presumably people got over these things in order to have their children or to undergo a surgery they needed etc but have a lack of will to do so for this vaccine*

The worst thing for me would be to be dosed up and unaware. I am also not allowed benzos due to my history.

And I also have not "got over it" to have urgent things done. I have signed disclaimers to avoid treatment. The only treatment I can do is talking.

So talking about "lack of will" is pretty offensive.

This is my point @NC276
I am not saying there isn’t evidence that says it reduces transmission (albeit low confidence evidence according to PHE) but it equally doesn’t say it stops it . Therefore you cannot say that if something is passed in it comes from an unvaccinated

People do have a lot of fear based on the early days of the vaccine so no long term data,the horrendous track record of many large pharmas, the unprecedented adverse reaction reports plus the anecdotal stuff you see on here and in your personal life to name a few. To dismiss this and act so hostile towards people shows no empathy and compassion. What a sad, world we live in when we can’t question things , can’t show any concern about our own health , question the consistent lies and inaccuracies that also come from our own government and get called selfish for having some genuine concerns

Anyway, have a good Saturday night. I am off to try and enjoy one now

There does seem to be a trend to be blaming all these new cases on people who are not vaccinated for being the source of these new infections - without also addressing the fact that some who are vaccinated have ended up in hospital. Theres a blame culture and a need to scapegoat going on here which is laced with the idea that those who have been vaccinated have a saintly status and can't be blamed.

The numbers just don't stack up for this.

The message isn't getting through that if you are vaccinated this isn't 100% effective thus you still need to observe distancing etc. And there is this creep and changing behaviour from the vaccinated that this doesn't apply to them anymore which is problematic. The elderly parent of a friend couldn't understand why she still had to have a mask on and her son had to explain to her carefully what the issue was for example.

This creates this situation where vaccinated people - if they are engaging in risker behavior - could be spreading it more than they realise especially if they are more likely to be assymptomic.

In other words we shouldnt be viewing this through a lens of virtuous behaviour because you are vaccinated alone. You also should still be being mindful that there is still a risk of infection and transmission. Especially if case numbers are growing.

Sure there is a very small percentage of people with anxiety or phobias for whom it is that extreme and nothing could enable them to get the vaccine even if they were willing to try. It's a miniscule number out of the population as a whole and I'm willing to bet a miniscule number of the people refusing to have a vaccine.

@Nerdygirl

This is my point *@NC276* I am not saying there isn’t evidence that says it reduces transmission (albeit low confidence evidence according to PHE) but it equally doesn’t say it stops it . Therefore you cannot say that if something is passed in it comes from an unvaccinated

People do have a lot of fear based on the early days of the vaccine so no long term data,the horrendous track record of many large pharmas, the unprecedented adverse reaction reports plus the anecdotal stuff you see on here and in your personal life to name a few. To dismiss this and act so hostile towards people shows no empathy and compassion. What a sad, world we live in when we can’t question things , can’t show any concern about our own health , question the consistent lies and inaccuracies that also come from our own government and get called selfish for having some genuine concerns

Anyway, have a good Saturday night. I am off to try and enjoy one now

but it is rare for vaccines to stop transmission 100%

a 40-60% reduction makes a huge difference on a population level when you're talking about a infectious disease that is highly transmissible - it will prevent many infections and also reduce the severity of disease of those who are infected (by reducing the viral load they're exposed to)

@TheHoneyBadger

Sure there is a very small percentage of people with anxiety or phobias for whom it is that extreme and nothing could enable them to get the vaccine even if they were willing to try. It's a miniscule number out of the population as a whole and I'm willing to bet a miniscule number of the people refusing to have a vaccine.

Fact or Opinion?

I'd argue that its a relevant point on a thread of this nature.

Whats interesting is you do have a few people posting who seem to be ticking the boxes for anxiety/hesitancy. Its hardly pure full on anti-vax here.

I do think that this type of fear is more widespread than is recognised too, and it can manifest as beligerance rather than being obviously anxiety or phobia.

I think it would be interesting to research this properly tbh.

I think it relieves your guilt when you think your choice won't affect anyone else. That's the truth of it. Although I should add it doesn't 100% stop transmission. Up to 50%.

Infection is reduced from vaccines as well as transmission once infected, so it's a cumulative effect.

So as I suggested there is still no confirmed evidence it stops transmission and the evidence of reducing it is currently marked as low confidence.

Well, it already stops transmission in the vast majority of cases where it stops infection.

And there is increasing evidence out of Spain, Israel and other countries as well as the U.K. that in that minority who are infected, even household secondary transmission is significantly reduced.

So overall that’s quite a big impact. In the vast majority of cases, a vaccinated person won’t be giving Covid to you even if they’ve been exposed to it. And there is evidence - early, yes - that secondary household transmission is reduced by a lot. And as the Hall et al paper notes, households are a high risk setting for transmission.

It’s worth reading the Hall study as well as the viral load paper from Israel (nasal viral load being an important determinant of transmissibility), the figures out of Israel showing the link between vaccination in adults and lower infection rates in kids.

These vaccines are stopping infections and are extremely likely to be stopping onwards transmissions. Not in every case - but no one ever said or expected any vaccine to be 100% effective. So yes, a vaccinated person can still be an infection risk to others. But a much, much lower risk than an unvaccinated individual who has had the same exposure to an infected person.