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Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure

985 replies

ToTheLetter01 · 18/06/2021 14:59

Before i begin, i am not an anti vaxxer. Me and my DS have had all our jabs and we also have annual flu jabs.
However i feel such hostility and pressure from people who have had their vaccine for me to have it. The reason i do not want it at this moment is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023 and i would like to know more long term data.
This is my choice, its my body and everyone should have the choice. Choice to have the vaccine and choice to not. I do not shame nor ridicule anyone for having it or not.
However i have felt so much pressure from friends and others in the wider public, media, government.

I feel like the nation is becoming split between us and them. ( vaccinated and unvaccinated). With things becoming unfair for people. Eg. may be able to travel and not quarantine if had vaccines, care home workers may be forced to have the vaccine. Now i get the point of view of they have had it and may be more "safe". But how is the ok in a freedom and rights point of view. As i stated freedom to do what you want with your body.

I feel like this world is becoming some kind of dystopian world. I miss my old life, i took all the freedom for granted. Its true that you don't realise how good it was until it's gone.
I don't want people to be hostile to me because of my choice to wait for long term data on the vaccine. Half of me wants to lie to people i've had it so they will not be stand off towards me.

OP posts:
GintyMcGinty · 20/06/2021 08:32

I take it that if you catch it and end up in hospital you will decline all the 'experimental' lifesaving treatment.

TensmumT · 20/06/2021 08:37

You're not alone OP, I'm glad there's other people who think alike, I was starting to feel alone! These are experimental vaccines, that have been approved in a rush. Immediate family members have had it, but DH and I are not, worried about short and long term effects. It's a case of waiting now that lots of people have had it, research on long term effects will then be done.

GentlemanJackie · 20/06/2021 08:44

@Daytimeknitter I hope you and anyone else who is struggling with this don’t end up feeling pressurised into having it before you’re ready. This is such a bizarre situation where all and sundry feel entitled to comment on an individual’s medical decisions.

winched · 20/06/2021 08:44

@Hornbill123456789

500,000 / 214,000,000

Vs

128,000 / 66,00,000

That's 0.23% for Brazil and 0.19% for the UK?

Brazil poverty: 19.20% < $5.50
UK poverty: 0.7% < $5.50

Might also want to mention that 70% of hospital beds and ambulances belong to the private sector in Brazil.

I completely understand what you're trying to do... but IMO it's the constant bombardment of these headlines and statistics that lead to what I was talking about previously i.e complete lack of trust in what we're being told.

Yes, on the surface no masks, no social distancing, low vaccines and 500,000 dead seems shocking.

But dig a little deeper (and it's not hard to do at all, just basic maths really) and it's not nearly as shocking as those blanket statements. But of course, those shocking blanket statements sell papers and get clicks, don't they?

I actually think the shocking thing is they haven't done THAT much worse than us, considering we've been masked up and distanced for well over a year now with large sections of society under lockdown for... at least 10 of those months?

Maybe the question we should be asking is... how have Brazil done so well despite the factors you've pointed out? No masks, SD, vaccines, most hospitals private and huge rates of poverty, and yet they've not done much worse than one of the richest countries in the world that threw everything at it.

Vitamin D? Better diet? More exercise? Climate?

None of this, however, provides clickbait. And thus you're seeing the complete lack of trust in all forms of mainstream media.

Which results in vaccine hesitancy...

winched · 20/06/2021 08:55

Only on very good times can we act entirely individualistically. When we face an existential threat, we have to work together to defeat it.

I absolutely wish this could be true but it's just... not?

If anyone has 10 minutes, this video asks a lot of important questions. And who is answering those questions?

The world wants us to work together, to act for the collective good... what's the world doing about this?

Why are they preventing the vaccines being manufactured en masse and distributed as widely as possible?

Do you want my honest opinion? The whole "Bill Gates Microchips Conspiracy Theory" has been 100% FABRICATED so that any sensible person who sees Bill Gates mentioned on a vaccine thread switches off.

Hornbill123456789 · 20/06/2021 09:01

@winched - I don’t think you can dismiss Brazil as ‘clickbait’. At all. Do you think their situation is an acceptable loss and their governments minimalist strategy is correct? - and the strategy all governments worldwide should be adopting?

Hornbill123456789 · 20/06/2021 09:06

Sorry - but to suggest that Brazil had a ‘successful’ Covid strategy is just - well I’m rendered speechless.

I’m also shocked at how far a pursuit of one’s individualistic needs can lead to such flat denial, paranoia and mistrust.

winched · 20/06/2021 09:12

@Hornbill123456789 I wouldn't presume to know... I'm merely pointing out the dangers of saying LOOK what happens when you don't mask, SD, lockdown etc... when the numbers say they're not THAT much worse than us, especially when you factor in the difference in poverty / overcrowding / access to healthcare pre-pandemic (i.e how healthy was that population before)?

If we evened up the poverty and the fact they're one of the highest populated countries in the world.... I think it's safe to say their outcome would have been at least the same as ours % wise, if not better.

So you can't hold them up and say "look what happens when you don't wear masks - 500k dead' without mentioning the fact they have a densely packed population of 200+million (regardless of all the other factors).

Clickbait or not it just defies the logic of your argument. And as I keep repeating... the more times someone with a spare minute can defeat that logic using google and basic maths, the more people think... what's the narrative here? Why is this the narrative? The more people distrust...

Hornbill123456789 · 20/06/2021 09:13

Just look at any media report anywhere around the world. US, India and Brazil. ALL have had the worst Covid response. How on earth can you suggest that Brazil have been ‘successful’?

Hornbill123456789 · 20/06/2021 09:19

There are many examples of developing countries who are densely populated who have had a successful approach, by implementing measures!!!

Hornbill123456789 · 20/06/2021 09:20

And within ten days of Nigeria’s first case being announced on February 28, President Muhammadu Buhari had set up a taskforce to lead the country’s containment response and keep both him and the country up to date on the disease. Compare this with the UK, whose first case was on January 31. Its COVID-19 action plan wasn’t unveiled until early March. In the intervening period, the prime minister, Boris Johnson, is said to have missed five emergency meetings about the virus.

JassyRadlett · 20/06/2021 09:28

Why are they preventing the vaccines being manufactured en masse and distributed as widely as possible?

Post-G7 and after the clear French and US backing I thought we were looking a lot closer to a Trips waiver?

Though I’m unconvinced parents are the primary blocker, I agree we should throw all we can at this one - but be mindful in doing so of potential negative effects down the track.

winched · 20/06/2021 09:30

@Hornbill123456789 I wasn't 😂 I have not said they were successful.

What I said was it's disingenuous to hold them up as an example when in comparison with the UK their death rate has not been so vastly different.

I also said, if there WAS ever a valid comparison between the two countries and the two outcomes, it would be to ask the question of how they have done 'so well' despite all the 'negative' factors going against them. The 'so well' is in comparison with the UK, one of the richest countries in the world, who've had lockdowns spanning 5 months at a time, who've had masks and SD throughout, and who have low rates of poverty.

Because maybe this would actually tell us something useful?

But I wasn't the one trying to compare Brazil with the UK in the first place (or India for that matter) and I feel like if you don't get what I'm trying to say after 3 times explaining it, you're probably not going to - so best leave it there. Smile

JassyRadlett · 20/06/2021 10:01

It’s worth noting that the Brazilian response has been remarkably complex, with many city and state administrations going against the Bolsanaro government. The current situation is looking awful though - I have colleagues in Rio who are more worried now than throughout the pandemic.

Hornbill123456789 · 20/06/2021 10:08

@winched - your words - how have Brazil “done so well” - they haven’t done well!!!

Dustyboots · 20/06/2021 10:12

One question was "would you support mandatory vaccines.
The next question was "would you support prosecutions or fines for those who dont take the vaccine" I didnt even realise this poll took place but im absolutely horrified.

I’m signed up to do those surveys and remember those questions. I used to do them quite religiously (and probably still should for some insight into where we’re heading) but it all got too depressing.

Hornbill123456789 · 20/06/2021 10:14

The pattern I see is - individualistic governments = poor Covid response, altruistic governments = good Covid response. I’d include UK, US (Trump) as individualistic - and Brazil/India as highly individualistic.

Individualism is important in society, but it is not the correct response when faced with a global pandemic.

Dustyboots · 20/06/2021 10:18

Vaccines are similar to tax. Why should I be forced to pay my money, which I could use to give my own family more, to help poor people?

This is a very stupid comment.

No one has forced anyone to be vaccinated (as with taxes) yet ...

Dustyboots · 20/06/2021 10:24

This is such a bizarre situation where all and sundry feel entitled to comment on an individual’s medical decisions.

Absolutely - and very worrying that people are beginning to see vaccinations as akin to taxes.

Abraxan · 20/06/2021 10:30

@MercyBooth

I have my flu jab every year (first week of December at Boots) Im 48 and cant have the AZ but at the mo there is a shortage of Pfizer. So havent had mine yet. DH is 71 and does not want to have it. With him its due to a lack of trust from an incident which occurred in the mid 2000s. Which caused a medical crisis that i was left to deal with and i eventually had to call a paramedic because it was escalating. This eroded his trust and mine. Which is why im not opposed to the vaccine but still on the fence and he just does not want it.
Whereabouts in the country are you?

There is no shortage of Pfizer where we are. We have a dedicated walk in open 5 days a week offering Pfizer. This weekend and last weekend we have two open house walk ins offering Pfizer. DD queued up and got hers last weekend. All of her friends have done the same this week.

The Pzifer walk ins here have been open to all adults aged 18+ including those over 40 and eligible to have the alternative vaccines.

RedToothBrush · 20/06/2021 10:34

We’ve created something in science, and scientists, that I don’t think scientists would ever have wanted in a pre-pandemic world.

The ideas that A) science is factual. B) science is always right. C) there is ‘best science’ and ‘worst science’ and the category it falls into is based on some unknown factor which has stopped being solely about the methods used to formulate the hypothesis. D) Everyone is supposed to blindly follow the science without question. E) Anyone who doesn't lacks education / critical thinking, or are conspiracy theorists / tin hatters.

None of these things have ever been expected of us or science until, apparently, now.

Just as this mindset that anyone not being completely altruistic is shunned as selfish has never happened until, apparently, now.

Again I disagree on this.

This is something that I would argue has been going on for at least the last 30 years if not longer and is part of the rise of the 'culture wars', neoliberalism, issues with big pharma, the 'commercialisation of morality' and the huge use of spin in politics so that it has become increasingly difficult to hold certain groups and organisations to account.

There are a number of people who have raised concerns about the quality of science out there in various areas and how ideas have been marketed and data which doesn't align with the message has been suppressed. Margaret McCartney is one who has drawn up concerns and the other particularly famous name on this is Ben Goldacre.

I've personally been banging on like a broken record about some of these issues on MN for well over a decade now.

McCartney's premise is that we have created a culture of the 'worried well'. This is where people who have better health to begin with are increasingly getting more time and attention from doctors - and not always in their own interests. And people with more complex and difficult health issues struggle to get proper access to good healthcare at all even though they need it more. This has created something of a two tier system which runs along poverty and educational lines. Where public health interacts we have deliberately created the idea of 'virtuous behaviour' and behaviour which falls outside this and isn't invested in (because there is little financial or political benefit to doing so). And thats creating huge problems in various ways.

We have got ourselves into a huge mess where theres often not the level of scrutiny and accountability there should be. One of my pet hates is how the media report various new papers on scientific studies. They almost always publish just the press release and don't bother to read the actual paper. The trouble is what a study actually says in the detail can all too frequently be completely at odds with the press release but no one bothers to check! It drives me nuts. Instead you end up with ideology dominating more than it should over the science and no proper room for debate about what the science really says or doesn't say.

The trouble is over a long period of time this has created almost this idea of the 'undeserving and difficult patient' in the same way as the 'undeserving poor' which is a basic failure to understand the social issues and a general long term failure of public health which hasnt adequately targeted the much more complex social needs of the people who need it most.

This has led to a growing lack of understanding and a division within the country.

Disinformation thrives on fear and long term neglect of problems. People turn to it because authority has failed them.

We can talk about altruism and altruistic societies here a lot but part of that involves a relationship with the state and the concept of ourselves in relationship to the state. Fear again plays a part in that relationship. Authoritarian states which demand loyalty aren't necessarily getting more altruistic behaviour - if you fall out of line with the state's desired behaviour you suffer personally. Thats more individualistic than we acknowledge. That doesn't necessarily protect the public either - it means there is less likely to be whistleblowers who highlight medical scandals or crisis. (See how China initially handled the outbreak of covid by trying to suppress knowledge of it).

The single central problem here that underpins all of this is the decline of critical thinking and the decline in acting in the common interests of all and instead focusing on the easy wins for most applause and quick reward rather than putting in the harder graft to address the more difficult issues in society. Problems are swept under the carpet and ignored and left for the next group of people to tidy up.

None of its healthy. But PR and marketing wins. Its rife in the charity sector, the pharmacy sector, the nhs generally and in politics.

To say that covid is the start of an undermining of science is grossly out of touch. Covid has shone a spotlight on it but it also coincidenced with a moment in time where the cracks in the entire facade of the PR commercial complex are starting to show and the public at large are starting to distrust it.

I'd also add that for all the talk of the uk not being altruistic on this, we still have one of the highest rates of vaccination in the world - over 80% of adults having a first dose so far isn't to be sneered at and I think in time our eventual full vaccination rate will be the envy of many other countries. I believe this already exceeds the hopes of public health officials and our general compliance with regulations has exceeded what was hoped for and factored into behavioural planning. Where this has failed most has been in areas with highest deprivation issues and the least ability (rather than willingness) to socially isolate generally and this in turn has led to greater distancing and quicker breakdown and discipline on regulation (because there is no benefit to people in this group who already feel perhaps 'deliberately sacrificed' for the benefit of others and have carried the burden of altruism by continuing on the front lines).

I probably sound like the most boring person on the planet but i do think these forces and trends are not instant and are never as simplistic as people try to make out they are. The complexity of the is the very reason why the problems we have today seem to be long term entrenched and ingrained.

Just this week ive seen comment that if you compare a map the covid hotspots with a map of victorian child poverty they are very similar. Make of that what you will.

MRex · 20/06/2021 10:42

@Dustyboots

*One question was "would you support mandatory vaccines. The next question was "would you support prosecutions or fines for those who dont take the vaccine" I didnt even realise this poll took place but im absolutely horrified.*

I’m signed up to do those surveys and remember those questions. I used to do them quite religiously (and probably still should for some insight into where we’re heading) but it all got too depressing.

I'd be willing to bet that was a tabloid trying to get a headline. The fact the rest of us didn't see it means that the vast majority said no. As of course they should.

I can't conceive a position in which refusal to take any vaccine or drug should be criminalised. I'm very pro vaccination because I believe it is lower risk than illness in the majority of cases, but people should each be given evidence and support. I'm against people who deliberately lie about anything and that includes vaccine risks; when lying is done for profit like Andrew Wakefield or David Icke, it's particularly despicable. Countering that should be more time given by professionals to discussing any individual's concerns; quite apart from it being essential to preserve people's right to bodily autonomy, on a societal level it would be a lot cheaper than a court case and more effective too.

RedToothBrush · 20/06/2021 10:44

Public health should work on an individual level (as in it should be the best option for that individual). When it fails to do that for everyone then I'd argue whether its succeeded for the community as a whole.

RampantIvy · 20/06/2021 10:44

This is such a bizarre situation where all and sundry feel entitled to comment on an individual’s medical decisions.

As far as I can remember, people have always had an opinion on all types of vaccinations. I'm inclined to think that if you don't want people to comment on your decisions you maybe shouldn't write about them on a public forum.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 20/06/2021 10:57

@Dustyboots,

Tax avoidance is within the law, as is vaccine avoidance.

Clearly, you may believe that it is a ‘stupid comment’ but I think it is an apt analogy.