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Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure

985 replies

ToTheLetter01 · 18/06/2021 14:59

Before i begin, i am not an anti vaxxer. Me and my DS have had all our jabs and we also have annual flu jabs.
However i feel such hostility and pressure from people who have had their vaccine for me to have it. The reason i do not want it at this moment is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023 and i would like to know more long term data.
This is my choice, its my body and everyone should have the choice. Choice to have the vaccine and choice to not. I do not shame nor ridicule anyone for having it or not.
However i have felt so much pressure from friends and others in the wider public, media, government.

I feel like the nation is becoming split between us and them. ( vaccinated and unvaccinated). With things becoming unfair for people. Eg. may be able to travel and not quarantine if had vaccines, care home workers may be forced to have the vaccine. Now i get the point of view of they have had it and may be more "safe". But how is the ok in a freedom and rights point of view. As i stated freedom to do what you want with your body.

I feel like this world is becoming some kind of dystopian world. I miss my old life, i took all the freedom for granted. Its true that you don't realise how good it was until it's gone.
I don't want people to be hostile to me because of my choice to wait for long term data on the vaccine. Half of me wants to lie to people i've had it so they will not be stand off towards me.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 19/06/2021 19:16

ilovesooty, I might play devils advocate a little here and pose the question: Is it feasible or even desirable to get 100% compliance with public health campaigns? Are there possible unintended consequences and hidden pitfalls to this? I think that the most ardent and hardline of pro-vac people fail to properly confront this question and answer it well.

NC276 · 19/06/2021 19:20

@RedToothBrush

(gets off soap box)

Sorry post above was rather longer than I had intended it to be!

Definitely don't apologise! You've made me think about it way more than any other comment on here. When people call you stupid or selfish, you immediately get defensive and just withdraw. But you've made me evaluate where my fear and distrust comes from. Really thank you for taking the time, and for also not calling me names Smile.
ilovesooty · 19/06/2021 19:22

I don't think 100% compliance is ever realistic RedToothbrush but it's an interesting question to consider.

NC276 · 19/06/2021 19:24

@ilovesooty I don't think that's fair although I appreciate that may be what you've experienced. Plenty of people who haven't had the vaccination yet are "on the fence". By judging them they're more likely to not talk about it through fear of judgment.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2021 19:25

Mostly, yes. That and the fear of side effects etc.

Of course, someone will be sure to chime up with "the needle is tiny" or "if you hate the vaccine needle, you will hate the needles you will face when you get Covid and end up in hospital"

I have heard it all.

Xeno, can I turn the question on its head a little?

If you can have the vaccine via another means other than needle would you have it?

What side effects bother you most? Why do you think you are particularly vulnerable to having those side effects?

And finally, if you were to have an injection, what would be a scenario which would help you to do this (eg, would having it in a certain setting on your terms help, would you like some sort of councilling / chat / consultation about this issue before hand - or even a nice chat to build a relationship with the vaccinator first with them understanding you might decide not to go through with it - maybe some kind of needle phobic clinic or some other thing you might find helpful)

My point being how could this be made easier for you and how do you think you might find a way to cope with it? And how these are the types of conversation we should be having - finding people who aren't entrenched but perhaps are facing barriers which perhaps carry a certain about of stigma/lack of understanding.

ilovesooty · 19/06/2021 19:32

[quote NC276]@ilovesooty I don't think that's fair although I appreciate that may be what you've experienced. Plenty of people who haven't had the vaccination yet are "on the fence". By judging them they're more likely to not talk about it through fear of judgment.[/quote]
@NC276 I understand that's where you're coming from. You do seem to be having real disquiet about taking up the vaccine. I do come across people who are strident in their refusal though so thank you for acknowledging that. As I said earlier for me this inherent societal vocal selfishness started well before covid and makes me angry.

NC276 · 19/06/2021 19:40

@ilovesooty I completely appreciate that. I've followed the restrictions fully throughout and yes I do get that what is perceived as "selfish" must be beyond infuriating. Even the anti Vax comments on this thread have infuriated me. I even appreciate by not having the vaccine I may have restrictions continue for myself. My son had a severe allergic reaction to a vaccine and it has affected my trust. I completely get that it was so rare, and he could've just as likely had a severe reaction to anything but it does make me uneasy. If that makes sense? I've also had Covid so I'm kind of hopefully that I already have some sort of immunity already. It's really difficult.

ilovesooty · 19/06/2021 19:45

@NC276 I can understand your being affected by your son's reaction. I'm glad you said what you're experiencing as it has made me think of aspects I hadn't considered.
I've just read about the anti vaxxers protesting outside London vaccine centres this afternoon and trying to intimidate people into not having the vaccine. Those people are dangerous.

DeltaBlues · 19/06/2021 19:47

At my relative's hospital there are people in their 40s needing to be admitted to hospital for Covid, some in ICU.

These people deliberately did not get vaccinated, but still turn up full of Covid to infect those patients who are vulnerable in hospital and expose hospital staff to massively high viral loads.

If you don't have the vaccine, you are not just risking your own life, you are risking others.

Everyone understands there are people who can't have the vaccine for genuine reasons, usually medical.

NHS staff do not hospitals to be full of people who were offered the vaccine but declined to take it, but are still happy to fill bring Covid in to hospitals and expose everyone inside to Covid so they can be treated for their stupid selfishness.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2021 19:50

I think we need to be mindless and separate 'hard core entrenched anti-vaxxers' from 'hestiant, anxious people who have trust issues with vaccines'.

The two are definitely not the same.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2021 19:54

The latter will usually have something going on which might be fair and a legitimate reason or concern not to have the vaccine or be a reason which means they may take up the vaccine with additional support and engagement.

There should be room for others to understand this, because it will help some people and make others realise this needs to be taken seriously and can't just be written off as 'selfish'.

Hamilbamil · 19/06/2021 19:55

@RedToothBrush

I think we need to be mindless and separate 'hard core entrenched anti-vaxxers' from 'hestiant, anxious people who have trust issues with vaccines'.

The two are definitely not the same.

And there's another group, those who are neither anti-vacs per se, nor have phobias or acute health concerns, but those who can't really be arsed and are happy to give some kind of half-baked ill-researched excuse, to avoid having to do it, expecting others to do what they can't be bother to.
Nerdygirl · 19/06/2021 19:55

@JassyRadlett

The vaccine doesn’t stop you carrying it but claims to protect you. The latest stats from PHE show that the cumulative majority of deaths this week came from vaccinated people. Therefore clearly vaccinated people are getting ill and therefore will also be spreading it.

Oh god not this again.

In the vast majority of cases it stops you getting infected. It stops you carrying it around. There is no way you can infect other people.

In a significant number (40-60% for alpha after one dose of vaccine, still waiting on data for second doses) of that minority who do get infected, it prevents onward transmission.

We don’t have data for delta yet but indications are that the vaccines are probably

So yes. If you’re vaccinated you can still get infected, you can still transmit it. But for the majority it does indeed do exactly what you claim it doesn’t - it stops those things from happening. Given the data we now have on symptomatic disease from delta vs the vaccines, we should not expect a massive aberration in terms of infection and transmission.

Yes vaccinated people will catch it - but at a much smaller proportion than unvaccinated people; milder disease is also likely to mean fewer viral replications. So objectively while vaccinated people do not pose zero risk to others, they are a much lower risk.

Where are the stats to back this up? The government have been clear it doesn’t stop transmission hence double vaccinated still having to social distance etc.

Furthermore in terms of the numbers and the greatest impact since the world war. It’s not even the number 1 in terms of total deaths in the last 20 years . May was lowest annual death rate since records began. Perhaps, sadly covid accelerated some of the deaths of people which would have happened later in the year.

Nerdygirl · 19/06/2021 19:59

@DeltaBlues

At my relative's hospital there are people in their 40s needing to be admitted to hospital for Covid, some in ICU.

These people deliberately did not get vaccinated, but still turn up full of Covid to infect those patients who are vulnerable in hospital and expose hospital staff to massively high viral loads.

If you don't have the vaccine, you are not just risking your own life, you are risking others.

Everyone understands there are people who can't have the vaccine for genuine reasons, usually medical.

NHS staff do not hospitals to be full of people who were offered the vaccine but declined to take it, but are still happy to fill bring Covid in to hospitals and expose everyone inside to Covid so they can be treated for their stupid selfishness.

So people who are double vaccinated and go about mixing with people and catching covid are equally selfish then? There is still a risk of them ending up in hospital and “infecting” people.

And someone who has had covid will have some immunity so you cant assume the unvaccinated are a higher risk as many wil have natural immunity

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2021 20:00

Everyone understands there are people who can't have the vaccine for genuine reasons, usually medical.

We usually only think of 'genuine reasons' as being physical rather than mental health related (such as phobias though). Thats part of the real issue going on here - our inability to recognise that a lot of people who are hostile to vaccines or have hestitancy have something thats triggered an almost 'fight or flight response' or 'emotional response'.

Get to the bottom of that and treat people with respect and you could improve health care outcomes for numerous health conditions.

This goes way beyond vaccinations.

riveted1 · 19/06/2021 20:01

Where are the stats to back this up? The government have been clear it doesn’t stop transmission hence double vaccinated still having to social distance etc.

@Nerdygirl

the government were clear at the beginning they didn't know the magnitude to which vaccination stops transmission

there are studies which demonstrate this which have been widely reported in the media

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-single-dose-of-vaccine-can-cut-transmission-by-up-to-half-study-12288998

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00947-8/fulltext

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2021 20:03

And there's another group, those who are neither anti-vacs per se, nor have phobias or acute health concerns, but those who can't really be arsed and are happy to give some kind of half-baked ill-researched excuse, to avoid having to do it, expecting others to do what they can't be bother to.

And do you think you will change those minds and actions by saying things in those terms?

Really? How is this helpful?

Enlighten me.

JassyRadlett · 19/06/2021 20:04

Where are the stats to back this up? The government have been clear it doesn’t stop transmission hence double vaccinated still having to social distance etc.

The government never, ever said that.

Initially they said the vaccines may not prevent infection or transmission because we didn’t have the data. At the time Vallance and Van Tam both said that they expected they’d have an impact on both.

We’ve had data since March showing an impact of the vaccines on on infection, and it’s improving all the time.

The official PHE tables are in the regular surveillance report. I’ve seen more recent data on transmission that put secondary transmission at 40-60% but I’m not sure if it’s just within households like this data or broader.

You’ll be aware that in some countries like the US, they’ve changed the guidance on mask wearing for the double vaccinated. In the UK we’ve gone for simplicity and the fairness of everyone having to follow the same rules.

winched · 19/06/2021 20:05

I might play devils advocate a little here and pose the question: Is it feasible or even desirable to get 100% compliance with public health campaigns? Are there possible unintended consequences and hidden pitfalls to this? I think that the most ardent and hardline of pro-vac people fail to properly confront this question and answer it well.

I don't actually think it is.

Take the Novavax for example, everything about that is looking really really promising.

Lets just say for example 100% of UK population are vaccinated when Novavax goes into human trials (or another vax that comes along - lets pretend they think it has 99% effectiveness and 0 side effects and is a magical cure)....

Where is the control group?

IMHO it's a good thing if some people don't get vaccinated.

I'm not getting vaccinated right now. In the risk group for AZ and I'd rather not have mRNA. I'd maybe take the Novavax though, and if not then I might sign up for trials in the future.

I'm not anti-vax at all... I just don't want the specific covid vaccines we've been offered.

Not selfish, I'm doing my bit for science by staying in the control group and would suggest anyone else not comfortable with having them RIGHT NOW says the same thing 🤷🏻‍♀️

NC276 · 19/06/2021 20:06

@ilovesooty I completely agree! They are dangerous! And in fact make those "on the fence" even more uneasy. When you say "I'm anxious about having the vaccine due to potential side effects including allergic reactions" you're immediately put into the "anti vax" box. I'm so anxious about my son's age group being vaccinated but I struggle to talk to people about it for fear of being put into the "anti vax" box. I fully appreciate those that have chosen to be vaccinated. Without them, restrictions would be far worse for me and my son. It's made me all emotional this (that and the glass of wine maybe) haha.

MarshaBradyo · 19/06/2021 20:07

Xeno no I wouldn’t say that. I have claustrophobia and arachnophobia and if I had to do something to avoid a potential it wouldn’t help me do it. I’d also do anything to avoid it as treatment. So I do get this part.

The side effects - honestly they were minimal one day. What do you think they might be?

The phobia part have you ever had to overcome it? If so what helped

ilovesooty · 19/06/2021 20:09

I don't honestly see any ways the can't be arsed or the strident anti vaxxers are going to be open to changing their minds through engagement. I do think the genuinely fearful are perhaps a different case.

TheHoneyBadger · 19/06/2021 20:22

I don't understand the logic of people who think covid is a scam and the jabs are dangerous. Most countries have prioritised their hcps and carers for vaccination - why on earth would they want to sterilise/kill/whatever it is you think the nefarious motivation is their expensive to train and greatly needed medical staff? And lets face it if the vaccine was dangerous the tories would have been offering it to teachers from day one.

The thing with anxiety and phobias which i have some experience of is they can be accommodated if the person is willing - you could be prescribed some valium (like people with fears of flying do when they have to make a trip) or be allowed to take someone in with you or be offered it in your own home at a small fee to cover the staffing.

So I don' think it's really about phobia of a needle or doctors - presumably people got over these things in order to have their children or to undergo a surgery they needed etc but have a lack of will to do so for this vaccine.

I also find myself wondering if the real reason double jabbed younger people with healthy immune systems (ie likely to have mounted a strong reaction to the vaccine and have good levels of immunity unlike the very elderly people who it offers less protection and we still need to be careful of and for) aren't allowed greater freedoms is the governments fear of being yelled at about a 2-tier society and some of their own radical back benchers apoplexy at the very idea of it.

I don't want to be banned from doing things that it would be safe for me to do because the government don't want to cause offense by saying only vaccinated people can do it rather than take on the chin the kickback from having different rules for people dependent on vaccination status.

It's also irksome that people, like myself, who didn't want the vaccine but could see how selfish and self defeating it would be not to and so did it despite anxiety around doctors, government programmes etc etc will next be facing having to decide whether to get our children to have the vaccine next at least in part because of adults like those on here who want everyone else, including other people's children, to take the risk when they're not willing too. That makes me sad and frustrated.

I do think we live in a very self driven world today. I've been in school throughout this pandemic, bar holidays, taking the risk of being exposed to crowded, poorly ventilated conditions - that's been anxiety provoking at times. I've gone and had the bloody vaccine despite my instinctive anxiety about it and I had really shitty side effects but still had my second dose and worked through those horrible side effects both times to keep teaching. In the face of a global pandemic some people want to stay working from home forever, whilst insisting others take risks so that their children can go to school, so they can have their shopping delivered, so people can be treated in hospitals etc AND they want everyone else to take the vaccine but aren't prepared to contribute anything themselves.

I can't imagine my parents generation, let alone my grandparents generation being like that. We probably wouldn't be here if they had been.

It's not about having a go at people it's just an observation that we wouldn't have societies, education systems, health care systems, care homes for the elderly, charities that support cancer patients or train guide dogs etc etc etc if this version social responsibility had been the norm. Everyone would just worry about themselves and screw everyone else. It makes it a bit clearer how the Boris' of this world end up being elected. Presumably he resonates with these people who deep down just care about number one.

Nerdygirl · 19/06/2021 20:30

@JassyRadlett

Where are the stats to back this up? The government have been clear it doesn’t stop transmission hence double vaccinated still having to social distance etc.

The government never, ever said that.

Initially they said the vaccines may not prevent infection or transmission because we didn’t have the data. At the time Vallance and Van Tam both said that they expected they’d have an impact on both.

We’ve had data since March showing an impact of the vaccines on on infection, and it’s improving all the time.

The official PHE tables are in the regular surveillance report. I’ve seen more recent data on transmission that put secondary transmission at 40-60% but I’m not sure if it’s just within households like this data or broader.

You’ll be aware that in some countries like the US, they’ve changed the guidance on mask wearing for the double vaccinated. In the UK we’ve gone for simplicity and the fairness of everyone having to follow the same rules.

Thanks for sharing . So as I suggested there is still no confirmed evidence it stops transmission and the evidence of reducing it is currently marked as low confidence. Therefore, both vaccinated and non vaccinated should surely take the same precautions until we have more evidence
XenoBitch · 19/06/2021 20:31

@RedToothBrush

Mostly, yes. That and the fear of side effects etc.

Of course, someone will be sure to chime up with "the needle is tiny" or "if you hate the vaccine needle, you will hate the needles you will face when you get Covid and end up in hospital"

I have heard it all.

Xeno, can I turn the question on its head a little?

If you can have the vaccine via another means other than needle would you have it?

What side effects bother you most? Why do you think you are particularly vulnerable to having those side effects?

And finally, if you were to have an injection, what would be a scenario which would help you to do this (eg, would having it in a certain setting on your terms help, would you like some sort of councilling / chat / consultation about this issue before hand - or even a nice chat to build a relationship with the vaccinator first with them understanding you might decide not to go through with it - maybe some kind of needle phobic clinic or some other thing you might find helpful)

My point being how could this be made easier for you and how do you think you might find a way to cope with it? And how these are the types of conversation we should be having - finding people who aren't entrenched but perhaps are facing barriers which perhaps carry a certain about of stigma/lack of understanding.

I did read there as research being put into other means of delivery, such as nasal sprays and patches. But then you get people say that is not good enough as that could be a long time before they are approved.

My phobia is pretty severe... I go into fight or flight.. and if I can't flight, I fight, and have little memory of doing it. I would be a risk to the people trying to inject me. This is not just needles either, I can't even have my blood pressure taken... I can't let anyone near me. I have been needle phobic as long as I can remember but it got worse (and the medical phobia too) when I was on a mental health ward and was restrained and injected. Also lots of occasions being restrained by police when I was in crisis. This stuff sticks with you.

Thank you for trying to understand. So many people dismiss phobias (and I am talking genuine phobia here... not "I don't like needles") as something childish. They can be a real barrier to lots of things.