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Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure

985 replies

ToTheLetter01 · 18/06/2021 14:59

Before i begin, i am not an anti vaxxer. Me and my DS have had all our jabs and we also have annual flu jabs.
However i feel such hostility and pressure from people who have had their vaccine for me to have it. The reason i do not want it at this moment is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023 and i would like to know more long term data.
This is my choice, its my body and everyone should have the choice. Choice to have the vaccine and choice to not. I do not shame nor ridicule anyone for having it or not.
However i have felt so much pressure from friends and others in the wider public, media, government.

I feel like the nation is becoming split between us and them. ( vaccinated and unvaccinated). With things becoming unfair for people. Eg. may be able to travel and not quarantine if had vaccines, care home workers may be forced to have the vaccine. Now i get the point of view of they have had it and may be more "safe". But how is the ok in a freedom and rights point of view. As i stated freedom to do what you want with your body.

I feel like this world is becoming some kind of dystopian world. I miss my old life, i took all the freedom for granted. Its true that you don't realise how good it was until it's gone.
I don't want people to be hostile to me because of my choice to wait for long term data on the vaccine. Half of me wants to lie to people i've had it so they will not be stand off towards me.

OP posts:
ilovesooty · 19/06/2021 17:33

@RedToothBrush it's complicated isn't it? I've got one not very close friend who described herself as 'relaxed' about the restrictions. That meant she stayed overnight on several occasions at their houses with at least a couple of friends not in her household. I've certainly not made any attempt to contact her since I became aware of that and as she's a professional connection I'm not really sure how I feel about her now.

ejhhhhh · 19/06/2021 17:36

Not being vaccinated has consequences (both for the individual and society), so choosing not to be vaccinated has consequences too. It has to be that way, there is no alternative. If no-one was vaccinated we'd be in permanent lockdown, so I think it's quite fair that only those who have been vaccinated can enjoy the full benefits of vaccination. Those who haven't been vaccinated are already enjoying more freedoms than 15 months ago, precisely because so many have now made the choice to be vaccinated, but that has it's limits, and that's what we're coming up against now. You're perfectly entitled to choose not be be vaccinated, but I'm afraid that I do agree that some restrictions on those who have made that choice are pretty fair.

Saucery · 19/06/2021 17:38

I read that uptake of the vaccine could be up to 10% higher if there was better understanding and treatment of needle phobia.

Yes, I can totally understand that, being needle phobic myself. The first vaccine was very stressful indeed and I zoned out when the nurse was confirming my details (I get a panicky rushing in my ears if I can’t run away, a sort of avoidance tactic from my body I think). She picked up on that and asked if there was anything they could do to help me with the process - was anyone with me, did I want to come back another day with someone etc? Knew I’d never get there again if I put it off though!
Strangely, the fact it is set up outside a GP practice helped a lot. The marquees gave it an almost Farmer’s Market atmosphere Grin

Egeegogxmv · 19/06/2021 17:40

if everyone made the same choice there would be no vaccine
this point is moot, most people are instinctively compliant

ChequerBoard · 19/06/2021 17:43

@Egeegogxmv

if everyone made the same choice there would be no vaccine this point is moot, most people are instinctively compliant

It's not moot. That's just a way of saying
'I don't want to talk about that'.

Go on - if we all agreed with you and refused to be vaccinated where would we be now?

Egeegogxmv · 19/06/2021 17:43

some restrictions on those who have made that choice are pretty fair
what about an hypothetical future where covid has been eradicated, would you say that those who didnt take the vaccine should still be subject to sanctions, should be less free than those who were vaccinated?

Saucery · 19/06/2021 17:44

@Egeegogxmv

some restrictions on those who have made that choice are pretty fair what about an hypothetical future where covid has been eradicated, would you say that those who didnt take the vaccine should still be subject to sanctions, should be less free than those who were vaccinated?
Why on earth would that happen?
ilovesooty · 19/06/2021 17:45

It's not going to be eradicated as far as I can see. That's not a realistic prospect.

CrunchyCarrot · 19/06/2021 17:46

Covid is the most consequential thing to have happened to humanity since WW2.

I would respectfully disagree with you. There have been several genocides in various countries since WW2. To my mind these are way worse than any virus. I don't think it's a good idea to start with the 'worst thing to happen to humanity' claims. Covid has been bad enough, but not as bad as that.

ejhhhhh · 19/06/2021 17:50

Eh? If a virus has been eradicated there no need for vaccination, so of course people who choose not to be vaccinated should not be subject to restrictions. But we're a long way off that scenario, Covid is still around, number have only dropped significantly because of vaccination, and if huge numbers of people had decided not to be vaccinated, we'd still be in lockdown and no-one would have any freedom whatsoever. Thank goodness so many people have been vaccinated so we can get back to something approaching normality heh? Aren't we all grateful to everyone who's had a jab, so we can all start enjoying life again.

baldafrique · 19/06/2021 17:53

@CrunchyCarrot
Agree 100%. A whole host of abject atrocities have taken place since WW2 across the world.

NC276 · 19/06/2021 18:02

This thread has been really interesting. @RedToothBrush really great posts, which have really made me think. I've not had my vaccine (I'm in my 30's) yet, but have been offered it. I have, however, had Covid and was really quite unwell. I don't broadcast the fact I've not had the vaccine as, this thread shows, you do get judged. People have said that I'm selfish, I don't care about the vulnerable, that I'm unintelligent, that I'm ignorant, and that I wanted others to have the vaccine so I didn't have to. Rather than shout insults at people, maybe try and question their fears. I'm hoping that I'll have my immunity tested and then go from there. It's really not an easy decision for me.

ejhhhhh · 19/06/2021 18:17

Insulting people who have made the decision not to have the vaccine is really not on, it's not a constructive way to argue the benefits at all. But those who have made the decision not to be vaccinated, do just need to accept the consequences. To then complain when they're not treated like everyone else who's had the vaccine, that continuing restrictions are unfair etc. is not an appropriate response. I'm sure there's loads of people who have been vaccinated who really worried about it, but made the decision to get it done anyway, and that has saved thousands of lives. Just accept the consequences of your decisions and suck it up, or just get the vaccine. This isn't directed at anyone who can't be vaccinate btw, but if it's a choice, you 100% need to own that decision. And as I've said before, be thankful that others have made a different choice.

Hamilbamil · 19/06/2021 18:32

@CrunchyCarrot

Covid is the most consequential thing to have happened to humanity since WW2.

I would respectfully disagree with you. There have been several genocides in various countries since WW2. To my mind these are way worse than any virus. I don't think it's a good idea to start with the 'worst thing to happen to humanity' claims. Covid has been bad enough, but not as bad as that.

I agree that at a National, or even regional, level, there have more consequential and devastating occurrences. Clearly for Syria, the civil war was far more of a major event than Covid has been.

However, I'd still contend that, on a global scale, nothing has been as significant as Covid for the way in which it has affected the lives of everyone in the world as a whole since WW2.

Lucidas · 19/06/2021 18:41

If there really is something significantly damaging about these vaccines, then we’d be seriously fucked as a society, considering the vast majority of health care workers and doctors have had it. So you may as well just gamble like everyone else and have the jab. What other option is there?

Abraxan · 19/06/2021 18:47

Choices often have consequences.

And we cannot dictate to other countries regarding their rules. If another country will only allow fully vaccinated people in, or have different rules for fully vaccinated people, then that's their choice.

Just like it is also your choice. You can have the vaccine and do those things. Or you can not have the vaccinate and not do those things.

You can still get covid even if you have the vaccine just potentially less severe

I would be happy with less severe as the first time put me in hospital.

Also the vaccines reduce your likelihood of catching covid and also reduce your likelihood, by at least a half, of transmitting to others. So beneficial to have had to both protect myself and those around me.

Backofbeyond50 · 19/06/2021 18:54

Have it or not OP. I really dont care but using the phrase experimentally 2023 speaks volumes
www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-vaccine-monitoring-idUSKBN2AC2G3

Backofbeyond50 · 19/06/2021 18:55

Experimental till 2023.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2021 18:58

[quote ilovesooty]@RedToothBrush it's complicated isn't it? I've got one not very close friend who described herself as 'relaxed' about the restrictions. That meant she stayed overnight on several occasions at their houses with at least a couple of friends not in her household. I've certainly not made any attempt to contact her since I became aware of that and as she's a professional connection I'm not really sure how I feel about her now.[/quote]
Tell me about it. I have struggled with people I know who have been breaking the rules heavily and then explain it away with a strawman argument about how they can still do x, y and z and a pretty childish 'its not fair' reasoning rather than realising it was about priortising social contact for certain purposes.

I think it highlights how we have different priorities in life and assess risk in different ways more than anything though. Its not simple and the whole 'everyone should get vaccinated and anyone who doesn't is selfish mentality' helps precisely no one.

I would argue that understanding risk and putting that into context is one of the most difficult things to do - especially when the use of %s is frequently used - which particularly confuses people.

This isn't something that only the 'uneducated' or 'stupid' struggle with either.

Research has found that a scary number of doctors don't properly understand this and can't adequately explain risk to other people. To the point that I think it alarming and that I think everyone should do more to under this so they can challenge doctors if they think they are being told duff information or feel they are being unfairly pressured into doing something they aren't entirely comfortable with.

In terms of restrictions and people not following them, there was an element of 'you can't tell me what to do' combined with people just not really understanding risk profiling and combined collective risk of enough people breaking rules in a way that put people at more risk than they realised.

It does have to be said that presenting risk in a way which doesn't carry bias is also something which is notoriously difficult to do though. We tend to present risk in a way which pushes a particular 'preferred behaviour' and this can make people feel pushed into something or can mean that informed free choice is damaged slightly. And that can, in turn, damage trust in scientists and doctors.

I know that this is an area that there is work being done to try and improve the situation and I think its much needed.

I've plugged Margaret McCartney's book The Patient Paradox more times that I care to mention on MN but its such a good book for deconstructing some of this poor practice and counter intitutive outcomes. One of the things she highlights the need to not go for targets primarily but focus on building relationships with patients instead as thats far more likely to get people with hestiancy of various kinds to engage. If you have concerns about science / doctors / public health campaigns read it. This isn't about telling people to have the vaccine - but understanding that there are lots of people in medicine who understand there are problems with public health campaigns and are working to improve the ability of people to make informed choices and public health campaigns can sometimes be problematic and not hit the mark.

The friends I have who have broken the rules frustrate me, and the reason I've distanced myself from them is less to do with being angry at them and more to do with identifying them as a potential risk to myself which I'd not be prepared to take myself. I also feel like 'they should know better', given his occupation and what his responsibilities are. But you can't actually say this outloud.

I would also add there has been a bit of debate in the media this week about making vaccines compulsory in certain workplaces. A number of experts - not politicians - have argued whether this would be counter productive and actually alienate people meaning they become even more hostile to the idea of having the vaccine. This tends to happen when you have a power imbalance and you have top down rules imposed which removes power from individuals. Putting two fingers up at authority makes some people feel empowered - especially if they are from a group which may have lower 'social status' normally. Its a concept that I don't think really has been spoken about at all and perhaps should be.

I have to say, in terms of building trust with the public, I am very against this type of approach myself. Its somewhat lazy and doesn't engage with the reasons why people are hestitant and why they feel they don't trust the vaccine. The main thing here is that relationship building is time consuming and labour intensive (I actually think there are going to be long term consequences to GPs who have closed their doors particularly harshly and without flexibility for this reason - relationships will be broken and never restored which will have an impact on health further down the line - and this is quite apart and different from not getting appointments as it represents a breakdown in trust).

This is presented as a simple decision but I think for many its MUCH MUCH more complex than that and we should be encouraging greater understanding of disengagement across the board because the problem goes way beyond covid vaccinations.

Health anxieties, white coat syndrome and various other health related phobias are much more common than people realise. They also have usually been triggered by 'something' and thats ultimately what you need to start looking at. For me it started after a couple of experiences of doctors with really poor bedside manner and a condesending tone that made me feel like complete shit and not feel like I was either respected or taken seriously. It might sound minor but it had quite a significant impact on me, and continues to do so. I don't feel I have confidence to deal with deals on a equal level so feel I need support with this. And I'm educated and generally articulate. Imagine that magnified on a community level particularly in less well off areas and the impact that might have.

Its about people failing to acknowledge there is a problem, never mind engage with it and to try and find solutions to it.

I think the best thing we can do is emphasis the importance of making rational not emotional decisions on this and trying to equip people with the tools / skills best to do this and reexamining whether public health campaigns need work in certain ways to improve engagement with particular groups.

Its a very difficult, contenious subject which really doesn't attract enough of the thoughtful debate it needs - particularly from within medicine and public health itself - and its why Margaret McCartney is one of my heroes really.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2021 18:58

(gets off soap box)

Sorry post above was rather longer than I had intended it to be!

Backofbeyond50 · 19/06/2021 19:00

I am aghast at being told my dh and I will be dead within 2y ears because we had the vaccine

riveted1 · 19/06/2021 19:05

@Egeegogxmv

some restrictions on those who have made that choice are pretty fair what about an hypothetical future where covid has been eradicated, would you say that those who didnt take the vaccine should still be subject to sanctions, should be less free than those who were vaccinated?
is this something you think would happen though @Egeegogxmv? what do you think the benefits would be to those in power?

Saying you must be vaccinated/have a negative test to travel or attend a large event for a disease that has been eradicated would make no sense

I know it's a theory that Mike Yeadon keeps bandying about, but he's never been able to articulate why anyone would bother doing it or what the benefits would be to "them"

ilovesooty · 19/06/2021 19:07

@RedToothBrush

(gets off soap box)

Sorry post above was rather longer than I had intended it to be!

No need to apologise. It was really interesting. I have really struggled with people playing fast and loose with the restrictions and trying to find ways to circumvent them. I find it particularly difficult when their work involves ethical principles.

I'd like to think we could increase engagement by listening to people's fears. However I think the refusers now comprise many who won't change their stance. I do think that judgement gives them an excuse to paint themselves as victims though.
I'll look up Margaret McCartney - thanks.

XenoBitch · 19/06/2021 19:07

@MarshaBradyo

Xeno is it the phobia stopping you rather than the vaccine? Phobias are very difficult I know.
Mostly, yes. That and the fear of side effects etc.

Of course, someone will be sure to chime up with "the needle is tiny" or "if you hate the vaccine needle, you will hate the needles you will face when you get Covid and end up in hospital"

I have heard it all.

Dragongirl10 · 19/06/2021 19:07

Op l have never been nasty to those who refuse the vaccine, however please answer this fair question......

Thinking back to January at the height of deaths and hospitals being close to overwhelmed, where would we all be today if we all took your stance?