Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure

[ToTheLetter01]

Before i begin, i am not an anti vaxxer. Me and my DS have had all our jabs and we also have annual flu jabs.
However i feel such hostility and pressure from people who have had their vaccine for me to have it. The reason i do not want it at this moment is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023 and i would like to know more long term data.
This is my choice, its my body and everyone should have the choice. Choice to have the vaccine and choice to not. I do not shame nor ridicule anyone for having it or not.
However i have felt so much pressure from friends and others in the wider public, media, government.

I feel like the nation is becoming split between us and them. ( vaccinated and unvaccinated). With things becoming unfair for people. Eg. may be able to travel and not quarantine if had vaccines, care home workers may be forced to have the vaccine. Now i get the point of view of they have had it and may be more "safe". But how is the ok in a freedom and rights point of view. As i stated freedom to do what you want with your body.

I feel like this world is becoming some kind of dystopian world. I miss my old life, i took all the freedom for granted. Its true that you don't realise how good it was until it's gone.
I don't want people to be hostile to me because of my choice to wait for long term data on the vaccine. Half of me wants to lie to people i've had it so they will not be stand off towards me.

There are some fundamentally unkind people in this world @XenoBitch but the great news is, that it seems like they will be avoiding us. Happy days!

@FflosFfantastig

There are some fundamentally unkind people in this world *@XenoBitch* but the great news is, that it seems like they will be avoiding us. Happy days!

Very true. Not sure I want to be around people that have such polarising views, and use strong words like contempt and despise for people not actually doing anything wrong.

Xeno is it the phobia stopping you rather than the vaccine? Phobias are very difficult I know.

@wasthataburp

I must say that Mumsnet is literally the only place this whole "us and them" thing actually occurs. No one I know could give two shits of someone else was jabbed or not. I am astounded at people actually feeling pressure like this to get it if I'm honest.

That’s very true. M

And meanwhile every case of natural-acquired antibodies rather than vaccine-acquired is another few million replications, so another few million chances for new variants - which is one of the big risks that unvaccinated people pose to the vaccinated while virus is still circulating in the community.

Unless the new variant is milder in which case the unvaccinated people might be the ones that save the day

@ilovesooty

No one said that there aren't millions of healthy people.

Vaccine refusers and test refusers are beneath contempt as far as I'm concerned. While they have the right to that choice I hope they'll be increasingly restricted and inconvenienced to keep them away from the vaccinated. Eventually I hope they'll be a real minority and their choice regarded as increasingly unacceptable in general society.

I'm far more concerned about your thought process, did you always lean towards being in favour of a two tier society or has covid brought on these irrational thoughts? Genuine question.

May I just remind people covid is not classed as a high consequence infectious disease . So this over reaction at the “unvaccinated walking around spreading “ is perhaps a little unnecessary I think. People must have a personal choice in this scenario. There are many reasons people don’t want it including previous infection

The vaccine doesn’t stop you carrying it but claims to protect you. The latest stats from PHE show that the cumulative majority of deaths this week came from vaccinated people. Therefore clearly vaccinated people are getting ill and therefore will also be spreading it . We all just need to be sensible around vulnerable people regardless of status

@wasthataburp

I must say that Mumsnet is literally the only place this whole "us and them" thing actually occurs. No one I know could give two shits of someone else was jabbed or not. I am astounded at people actually feeling pressure like this to get it if I'm honest.

I don't believe thats true. Its the only place people are honest about how they feel about this. They won't say it in person and they won't say what they really think on social media linked to them directly.

I do think health anxiety is a massively misunderstood thing and there is a lot of ignorance about it though and it would be helpful to use this as an opportunity to cut through that and deconstruct some of the barriers it creates.

It's your opinion that my opinion is irrational.

Before covid there wasn't this issue so your question about your two tier society isn't really relevant.

@RedToothBrush I'm quite prepared to express that opinion in real life too. None of my social circle are vaccine refusers anyway.

Because you rely on us having them to keep you safe. Can you see how that is unfair as you feel you are more important?

@ilovesooty

It's your opinion that my opinion is irrational.

Before covid there wasn't this issue so your question about your two tier society isn't really relevant.

Fair enough but I'm sure you were probably a much more compassionate person pre-covid and I think it's really sad that the constant scaremongering from the media/government etc has left people feeling the way you do.

Sadly many will never return to a normal way of thinking.

@Whyevencare I possibly was. Pre covid I also wasn't so aware of how selfish and irresponsible so many people are, which has made me angry. I also didn't feel anything like so much contempt for the government a few years ago.

I think powerlessness has a big impact and I believe vaccine refusers are prolonging the impact of covid on all our lives and thus making restrictions and powerlessness longer term.

@Nerdygirl

May I just remind people covid is not classed as a high consequence infectious disease . So this over reaction at the “unvaccinated walking around spreading “ is perhaps a little unnecessary I think. People must have a personal choice in this scenario. There are many reasons people don’t want it including previous infection

The vaccine doesn’t stop you carrying it but claims to protect you. The latest stats from PHE show that the cumulative majority of deaths this week came from vaccinated people. Therefore clearly vaccinated people are getting ill and therefore will also be spreading it . We all just need to be sensible around vulnerable people regardless of status

Great. So we have been able to downgrade it now that we know it's less fatal than Ebola or Pneumonic Plague and other diseases which can only be treated in an approved HCID Centre.

Meanwhile the WHO continue to consider Covid-19 a PHEIC - Public Health Emergency of International Concern which require a national, coordinated response.

I'll continue listening to the scientists and experts rather than someone who thinks that if it's not an HCID is all fine and dandy.

And for me this started pre covid - with Brexit. That's the reason India being put on the red list was delayed and why we are where we are.

[quote ilovesooty]@RedToothBrush I'm quite prepared to express that opinion in real life too. None of my social circle are vaccine refusers anyway.[/quote]
I think the point about your social circle is probably the relevant bit here though.

When you said 'experimental stage' it showed that you lack understanding.

Lovely to see the pop up clinics and the thousands turning up to help the country return to a more normal life again

Yes @RedToothBrush. Fair point. One of my close friends has another friend who persistently broke restrictions when we were in tier 3 and said she wouldn't be vaccinated. I know my friend was disgusted with her and wouldn't meet up indoors with her, but I would be cutting her off completely. Obviously my friend's choice though.

The vaccine doesn’t stop you carrying it but claims to protect you. The latest stats from PHE show that the cumulative majority of deaths this week came from vaccinated people. Therefore clearly vaccinated people are getting ill and therefore will also be spreading it.

Oh god not this again.

In the vast majority of cases it stops you getting infected. It stops you carrying it around. There is no way you can infect other people.

In a significant number (40-60% for alpha after one dose of vaccine, still waiting on data for second doses) of that minority who do get infected, it prevents onward transmission.

We don’t have data for delta yet but indications are that the vaccines are probably

So yes. If you’re vaccinated you can still get infected, you can still transmit it. But for the majority it does indeed do exactly what you claim it doesn’t - it stops those things from happening. Given the data we now have on symptomatic disease from delta vs the vaccines, we should not expect a massive aberration in terms of infection and transmission.

Yes vaccinated people will catch it - but at a much smaller proportion than unvaccinated people; milder disease is also likely to mean fewer viral replications. So objectively while vaccinated people do not pose zero risk to others, they are a much lower risk.

@MrsTerryPratchett

It's your body, your choice.

However if everyone made the same choice there would be no vaccine.

If most people made the same choice we'd either be having massive death tolls or permanent lockdown until 2023 according to you.

Your choice not to lockdown and not to have it is only possible because of others. You want the benefit of people being vaccinated but not the risk.

If you don't want to be vaccinated, and I respect your choice, why aren't you subject to the consequences of that choice; lockdown until 2023 while the vaccinated have the consequences of their choice; travel and mass events?

Exactly this. If everyone thought like you and wanted to wait, then what?

Sorry - didn’t finish sentence. Early data for delta shows no signs that the ability to prevent infection and transmission will be wiped out, though it may be lower - we just don’t know yet.

Sorry, the ‘oh god’ was rude, and I shouldn’t have given way to frustration. The misinformation circulating with so many people genuinely believing the vaccines have no impact on transmission or infection is just so frustrating and worrying.

Vaccine refuses are willing to take the benefits of others being vaccinated but unwilling to contribute.

@ilovesooty

Yes *@RedToothBrush*. Fair point. One of my close friends has another friend who persistently broke restrictions when we were in tier 3 and said she wouldn't be vaccinated. I know my friend was disgusted with her and wouldn't meet up indoors with her, but I would be cutting her off completely. Obviously my friend's choice though.

I think its particularly difficult when you have close friends who haven't been on the same page as you re: vaccinations and restrictions.

Out our circle of friends we are all pro-vaccination but there are some differences with how much one family have followed the restrictions which has made the others feel very uncomfortable and awkward - they were having neighbours kids running in and out their house in May 2020 and have no concept of social distancing. I am well aware of how the others feel but I also know they wouldn't challenge them. Instead it quietly festers. Its drawn a wedge in the relation to an extent (which kind of suits me as I dislike the husband at the best of times).

I dunno, we've been moving to living in smaller and smaller echo chambers in the last 6 or 7 years. Thats the real problem.

@Nerdygirl

May I just remind people covid is not classed as a high consequence infectious disease . So this over reaction at the “unvaccinated walking around spreading “ is perhaps a little unnecessary I think. People must have a personal choice in this scenario. There are many reasons people don’t want it including previous infection

The vaccine doesn’t stop you carrying it but claims to protect you. The latest stats from PHE show that the cumulative majority of deaths this week came from vaccinated people. Therefore clearly vaccinated people are getting ill and therefore will also be spreading it . We all just need to be sensible around vulnerable people regardless of status

So much misleading stuff here:

Covid isn't consequential? Wtf!? Covid is the most consequential thing to have happened to humanity since WW2.

There's plenty of evidence now that being vaccinated does significantly reduce infection, and if infected, your infectiousness..., which is exactly what you'd expect.

Finally, yes, a fair proportion of those hospitalised are double-jabbed, but those who have been double-jabbed are from the group that made up 99% of hospitalisations before vaccination, meaning there would be massively higher numbers of Covid patients had the vaccination programme not happened.

@AliceLivesHere

Vaccine refuses are willing to take the benefits of others being vaccinated but unwilling to contribute.

Exactly. Those saying they want to wait til 2023, and don't have any other mitigating reason for being cautious of the vaccine like the OP, are relying on the rest of us. They're freeloaders... How can they be surprised that people don't like them for it? The lack of self-awareness is astonishing.