Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure

[ToTheLetter01]

Before i begin, i am not an anti vaxxer. Me and my DS have had all our jabs and we also have annual flu jabs.
However i feel such hostility and pressure from people who have had their vaccine for me to have it. The reason i do not want it at this moment is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023 and i would like to know more long term data.
This is my choice, its my body and everyone should have the choice. Choice to have the vaccine and choice to not. I do not shame nor ridicule anyone for having it or not.
However i have felt so much pressure from friends and others in the wider public, media, government.

I feel like the nation is becoming split between us and them. ( vaccinated and unvaccinated). With things becoming unfair for people. Eg. may be able to travel and not quarantine if had vaccines, care home workers may be forced to have the vaccine. Now i get the point of view of they have had it and may be more "safe". But how is the ok in a freedom and rights point of view. As i stated freedom to do what you want with your body.

I feel like this world is becoming some kind of dystopian world. I miss my old life, i took all the freedom for granted. Its true that you don't realise how good it was until it's gone.
I don't want people to be hostile to me because of my choice to wait for long term data on the vaccine. Half of me wants to lie to people i've had it so they will not be stand off towards me.

[quote bumbleymummy]@ilovesooty Do you feel the same about obese people and smokers taking up NHS resources and taking no ‘social responsibility’?[/quote]
obesity and drug/alcohol use are a) not infectious diseases and b) are complex multifactorial health issues where there isn't a quick fix like a vaccine

This is the problem with you talking about "doing your own risk assessment". Not getting vaccinated potentially effects everyone (and will indirectly effect the person anyway, due to the impact of COVID suppression measures). They're not comparable diseases.

I’m talking about their use of resources not whether or not they are contagious.

@RampantIvy

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/covid-third-wave-uk-delta-variant-b941508.html

It's no coincidence that the rise in cases has been driven by those who haven't had the vaccine, or that most of the hospital admissions needing treatments are people who haven't been vaccinated.

I'm not convinced this is the case as I'd imagine a high number of vaccine decliners are not the ones getting constantly tested.

If you don’t want to get vaxxed then take the consequences of:
A. Possibly getting v ill or getting long Covid (this prob scares me more than getting a mild dose of it as long Covid doesn’t correlate w intensity of disease.).
B. Having ‘freedoms’ curtailed for longer as there needs to be about 85% uptake of 2 doses for herd immunity.
C. And yes, imho there should be vaccine passports for those who have taken the v small risk of getting jabbed. Why should countries admit those who are potentially infection risks?
And read up or watch a programme about the stages of getting a vaccine into the public arena. The last stage is always the mass vaccination stage.

I have only read the OP.

Of course you have a choice. You are free to make it.

What you actually want is a consequence-free choice and for everyone else to accept your choice as valid/moral/reasonable.

There's lots of choices you are free to make in life that many other people will not respect you for, and this is one of them.

@riveted1Oh, and the quotes I gave you earlier about them not being able to prove a link between the mmr and autism came from the retracted lancet Wakefield paper. I’m always surprised by the number of people who talk about it but didn’t read it to find out what it actually said.

[quote bumbleymummy]@ilovesooty Do you feel the same about obese people and smokers taking up NHS resources and taking no ‘social responsibility’?[/quote]
This 🙌🏼

@bumbleymummy,

No, there is a massive difference between being vaccinated and donating an organ.

Not circulating with COVID is stopping yourself being a threat to others. You are not a threat to others by failing to donate an organ.

Would you say infectious people have a right to freely circulate, even knowing they are a risk to others? Bodily autonomy, right?

It is a totally false comparison.

Choices were different on a war time footing when definitions of duty changed and you were expected to help with the war effort how you could. Those who sat back and let others fight would still enjoy the benefits of the coming peace, but they would have revealed something about themselves that wouldn't have been seen it they had been born at a different moment in history, when it wasn't so crucial to pull together.

This isn't that different. Expectations are different because the need to work towards a common goal is more important than ever, to preserve lives and our way of life.

Ironically those refusing the vaccine would probably not accept their doctor and nurses refusing to treat them. There is something very unfair about making a choice to ensure your safety knowing that people will put themselves at risk to treat you if you become sick, and knowing that cancer patients are desperately writing for treatment.

Currently those taking up Covid beds are mainly the unvaccinated and the young. That's a choice for those who are unvaccinated but where is the choice for those in their bubble who are missing work and school, and those who would like to get treatment for other conditions.

The vaccine has not been given out unregulated and untested. Every vaccine carries risk. It is particularly aggravating that those not having the vaccine are also those pretending that an undue emphasis on Covid has shortchanged cancer patients and our children/arts/sports have been shafted. All of which would be improved by having the vaccine but no, these people will not be happy to have it until they have watched the rest of the population having it and doing their bit. Meanwhile they are rolling up in hospital for treatment and everyone is probably too professional to say I told you so. The current vaccine roll out is a drive to save everything we hold dear, not a mass trial for your future benefit. You are taking up hospital beds needlessly and will have higher rates of transmission as a result of your choice not to have the vaccine. You may transmit it to someone older than you and more likely to need treatment. This is especially true with the Delta variant. You can't just say you've washed your hands and worn a mask.

Have your choice. Yes it's your right. No don't expect any respect or understanding, specially

@TheReluctantPhoenix

At no point in history has anyone had absolute bodily autonomy with no consequences.

If you wanted to travel to many countries, you had to have had a yellow fever vaccine (yes, their laws, not ours, but we have not had any potentially deadly circulating diseases for a long time until COVID).

This is a trade off of freedoms. Your bodily autonomy vs a vulnerable person’s safety. Whose right is paramount?

So, the compromise is vaccines are not mandatory but, equally, the admission of an unvaccinated person into a country or event is also not mandatory.

Body autonomy is 100% paramount over a vulnerable person. How could it not be

@bumbleymummy,

Smoking is a good comparator. You have a right to smoke.

You do not have a right to smoke while being admitted to a public event or to demand medical insurance for the same price as a non smoker.

@Whyevencare judging from the appalling lack of responsibility of those who are refusing to test their children you may well have a point.

My opinion of those people is about as low as my opinion of vaccine refusers. @bumbleymummy I know you don't care about that. It's what I'd expect anyway. Freeloading and irresponsible refusers by definition only care about themselves and aren't open to taking on board how they affect wider society.

the young - relative to previous waves, not usually literally the young!

@JustDanceAddict

If you don’t want to get vaxxed then take the consequences of: A. Possibly getting v ill or getting long Covid (this prob scares me more than getting a mild dose of it as long Covid doesn’t correlate w intensity of disease.). B. Having ‘freedoms’ curtailed for longer as there needs to be about 85% uptake of 2 doses for herd immunity. C. And yes, imho there should be vaccine passports for those who have taken the v small risk of getting jabbed. Why should countries admit those who are potentially infection risks? And read up or watch a programme about the stages of getting a vaccine into the public arena. The last stage is always the mass vaccination stage.

I agree as I am sure the refusers are more than willing to curtail these freedoms for a while. If they want to travel they can always just take tests (you know, just like the vaccinated)

@JustDanceAddict Why should countries admit those who are potentially infection risks?

The vaccine doesn’t guarantee immunity so a vaccinated person may still be an infection risk. An unvaccinated person may have recovered from the virus and be immune and therefore will not be an infection risk.

[quote bumbleymummy]@riveted1Oh, and the quotes I gave you earlier about them not being able to prove a link between the mmr and autism came from the retracted lancet Wakefield paper. I’m always surprised by the number of people who talk about it but didn’t read it to find out what it actually said.[/quote]
I have read Andrew Wakefield's paper, but that doesn't mean I've memorised it. Posting out of context quotes without saying where they're from and linking to original work isn't particularly helpful.

He repeatedly claimed there was a causal link between MMR and autism/enterocolitis, so I'm not sure why you're suggesting otherwise

@wasthataburp,

Because bodily autonomy isn’t, and has never been, absolute, where it intersects with others’ rights.

I must say that Mumsnet is literally the only place this whole "us and them" thing actually occurs. No one I know could give two shits of someone else was jabbed or not. I am astounded at people actually feeling pressure like this to get it if I'm honest.

Hopefully once everyone has been offered a vaccine testing for travel as an alternative will only be available as a reasonable no cost adjustment for those who cannot be vaccinated. Refusers should expect to be restricted as a consequence of their choice.

Didn’t the recent ons survey show that over 80% have antibodies (from vaccination/natural infection)?

Yes, around 80% of adults. So still a fair amount to go, based on the idea that delta will need around 80% of the population (including kids) to have antibodies for herd immunity, which means pretty close to all adults.

And a lot of the antibodies will also be in younger age cohorts (based on infections In the winter wave) who have only just become eligible for vaccine and will get vaccinated, so it’s not a linear route out. For example, 50% of 18-24s have antibodies and 20% have been vaccinated - so a lot of those who have antibodies in that cohort will be vaccinated in the next few months without ‘adding’ to the antibody numbers.

Conversely those figures show there are still 10% of 50-60 year olds without antibodies. It will be great if we do actually hit herd immunity at a lower level but otherwise even delta will take a while to work its way through.

And meanwhile every case of natural-acquired antibodies rather than vaccine-acquired is another few million replications, so another few million chances for new variants - which is one of the big risks that unvaccinated people pose to the vaccinated while virus is still circulating in the community.

[quote ilovesooty]@Whyevencare judging from the appalling lack of responsibility of those who are refusing to test their children you may well have a point.

My opinion of those people is about as low as my opinion of vaccine refusers. @bumbleymummy I know you don't care about that. It's what I'd expect anyway. Freeloading and irresponsible refusers by definition only care about themselves and aren't open to taking on board how they affect wider society.[/quote]
I am also a vaccine decliner
The point I was making is 'they' will try and blame the vaccine decliners for spreading the virus but you seem to have forgotten that there's still millions of actual healthy people, not everyone is walking around carrying a virus

No one said that there aren't millions of healthy people.

Vaccine refusers and test refusers are beneath contempt as far as I'm concerned. While they have the right to that choice I hope they'll be increasingly restricted and inconvenienced to keep them away from the vaccinated. Eventually I hope they'll be a real minority and their choice regarded as increasingly unacceptable in general society.

@ilovesooty

No one said that there aren't millions of healthy people.

Vaccine refusers and test refusers are beneath contempt as far as I'm concerned. While they have the right to that choice I hope they'll be increasingly restricted and inconvenienced to keep them away from the vaccinated. Eventually I hope they'll be a real minority and their choice regarded as increasingly unacceptable in general society.

I think it is sad that you have such contempt for people who are not actually doing anything wrong. No rules are being broken by people not getting the vaccine or tests.

No, no rules are being broken. I know what I think of the societal values of refusers though, and I want nothing to do with them in so far as I can make that choice.

@ilovesooty

No, no rules are being broken. I know what I think of the societal values of refusers though, and I want nothing to do with them in so far as I can make that choice.

Some people are declining the vaccine due to very real anxieties. They deserve understanding, not contempt.

I read that uptake of the vaccine could be up to 10% higher if there was better understanding and treatment of needle phobia.