Can we really just stop life to preserve every life?

[MrsHastingslikethebattle]

Everyone whom I know is more scared of the Governments reaction to Covid, than Covid itself.

The vaccinations are the most protection we are ever going to get, and yes people will still die.

Why can't we just accept that people die of Covid like we accept thousands each year who have died through flu and other preventable diseases?Millions and millions of people have died through smoking and alcohol, costing millions to the NHS. Yet we haven't banned them?
Viruses mutate and Covid is no different. They're will be variants indefinitely. Are we to cower behind our sofas every time a new one is announced?
The media in full force say how serious the new strain is, then lo and behold, weeks later it shows the vaccines are still offering high protection.
Public Health have started there is no correlation between the Indian variant and hospital admissions.
There is also a report that over 80% of Covid infections were caught in hospital, yet hospitality is are still targeted with table service, masks and track and trace.

When did this become about cases? not deaths and hospital admissions like it was to begin with?

The media and government have done well to completely scare people into submission. This is no longer about protection, its control and power.

Mumsnet is the only place is seems where people want these restrictions to carry on.

Everyone in real life has had enough and can see through this bullshit for what it really is!

#Imdone

Haven’t you read any medieval literature?
Loads of dancing and singing and general cavorting, that often went on days not a few hours.
And as for the Romans and Greeks!

@Tealightsandd

A half decent Prime Minister would have closed the borders from India earlier and at all stages of the pandemic acted quicker. About six weeks less of the highest level of restrictions would have resulted

Yes, the alternative would be worse
It's largely this. We desperately need an appealing opposition. (Always important whoever is in power and whatever the situation) Unfortunately we don't currently have one

I disagree, Labour have argued for tighter border control and earlier LD's, certainly from last summer on ward.

If BJ has 45% plus support, then he will feel he can do whatever he likes, with only the right wing of his party to deal with and they really would have had the bodies piling up.

Equally ridiculous to calmly accept 100s of avoidable deaths a day.

Of course we don't need to ban nightclubs forever, although unrelated to Covid it seems they were losing popularity (pre pandemic). Many have closed in the last decade (way before Covid). Fewer young people were going to them. But that's a different issue. Changing preferences, I guess.

So no not permanently of course not. But - ridiculous it is definitely, to say it's worth killing 100s of people daily, so that some others can have a night out in a club. A nightclub is not worth killing for. No. Better to have temporary life and long term heath saving protections in place.

As for smoking. Yes it highlights the hypocrisy of many. Screaming for their 'freedom' to let people die, but then wanting to deny freedom of choice for smokers. People want to 'live with' Covid, then they most certainly should live with smoking. Particularly given the net tax gained from smokers.

Of course the best solution to dealing with Covid is not killing 100s a day, and condemning many more to long term disability. Nor is it long repeated lockdowns. It is pandemic border control with real quarantine. Also, we spent billions on T&T. Lets get our money's worth - get it working properly.

@Tealightsandd how would you improve T&T?

Anyone with vulnerable friends and relatives wants the restrictions to carry on. I want my son to be able to come and see me before he dies. I'm not the only one.

People can have a small dance in a pub

Have you set foot in a pub recently? If you had, you would know that couldn't be further from the truth.

I drink in an old-fashioned institute club. It's frequented by many older and elderly people who, even before the vaccines, were perfectly happy to take their chances and go out to meet friends and have some company.

I can assure you, there's no dancing.

At the moment, the entertainment is even restricted to solo singers, not bands, as was formerly the case. Presumably to make sure that everyone doesn't enjoy themselves too much.

What an odd view.

It's like the OP is a super scientist and has come out with an entirely different conclusion to everyone else with expertise because she is Brilliant.

@Kanitawa

The law has temporarily changed Maybe it won’t be temporary. Covid isn’t going anywhere. It’s possible that large gatherings with no social distancing may never be safe again. Imo the world has fundamentally and permanently changed. What happens, happens. If some businesses go under then it’s just tough. Others will appear in their place and life will go on.

"If some businesses go under it's just tough".

What a vile, gross thing to think and then actually post. Try telling that to the 5 people in my business (and counting) that have killed themselves.

@Kanitawa

The world hasn’t changed. People want to do these things. The demand is there. But those things aren’t possible any more because of disease control. So the world has changed. We may be looking at a permanent future where people can’t meet in groups larger than 30. That’s something that people (and owners of large venues and event organisers) may just have to come to terms with.

Oh pull the other one. Nobody is going to accept that.

So the world has changed. We may be looking at a permanent future where people can’t meet in groups larger than 30.

Rubbish.
For the short term, no groups over thirty is necessary. Long term it absolutely won’t be.

Let’s be honest, if the law on mass gatherings remains, people will just do it on the QT.
There are already underground events happening. They’ll just increase.

disagree, Labour have argued for tighter border control and earlier LD's, certainly from last summer on ward.

If BJ has 45% plus support, then he will feel he can do whatever he likes, with only the right wing of his party to deal with and they really would have had the bodies piling up.

But that is what has happened. And is continuing to happen. We've literally just had the government calmly tell us they will let more bodies pile up. 100s a day. And it seems there is public acceptance - even support - of that.

It's good that Labour are calling for the right thing. But unfortunately they lack authority. After the event, history won't judge the current government kindly. Gross negligent manslaughter and GBH (Long Covid) is never a good look, but for now they're getting away with it.

The only thing that stopped them killing even more (and condemning others to long term disability) is other countries like France, Germany, and America slamming their door shut to us.

America is now open to some travel from Europe but not from the UK. There's a good reason for that. We are a high risk country.

If we had a stronger opposition, they wouldn't get away with it.

Tbf to Boris, you're right that he's under pressure from the extreme right within his party - the likes of Mark Harper and Steve Baker (two men who epitomise the UK approach of greed, idiocy, and complete lack of foresight).

Mass drinking and dancing in older times was more related to festivals, harvest festival for example, and these would usually be summer outdoor events or semi outdoors.

It isn't hard to understand why modern nightclubs and indoor concerts can be super spreaders of infection. Hundreds, or thousands, of people from different households crammed together in unventilated windowless rooms. Poor hygiene in toilets and in bar areas, bottles and glasses that haven't been wiped or cleaned properly. How many of us have been out nighclubbing and the next morning woken up with a sore throat.

@HelloMissus

Let’s be honest, if the law on mass gatherings remains, people will just do it on the QT. There are already underground events happening. They’ll just increase.

Yes and the government know and (unofficially) condone it.

Why else would they choose to import and let spread the Delta variant. And even now remain wide open to any and all new strains.

They've never really made much effort to hide their let the bodies pile up approach.

And so we head again towards the top of the world leader board for Covid death rate and numbers. World beating indeed.

Meanwhile more and more people will find themselves unable to work - suffering the debilitating effects of Long Covid, risking all sorts of long term health problems, from organ damage to diabetes to hearing loss.

As for the NHS and long suffering staff. Already facing 5 year backlog...so the government has the bright idea of making that worse. 100s of Covid deaths a day, extra pressure on the under pressure NHS, again risk to vulnerable patients from ward acquired Covid infection. And the ongoing long term burden of Long Covid.

[quote ILookAtTheFloor]@Tealightsandd how would you improve T&T?[/quote]
I'd track and trace people (and tell them to isolate - with support - where necessary).

I get not everyone wants T&T, but I'm sure most people would agree if we're not going to have proper track and trace, those billions (of taxpayer money - our money) should've gone elsewhere.

@Tealightsandd

Don't under estimate the power of the media, they kept anti Semitism high in the public mind, yet have done absolutely nothing to bring Islamophobia in the Tory party to the fore & i inc BBC ITV in this

This is labours problem, if they have a good policy it will be ignored by the MSM and/or copied by the Cons, so by the time we hear about it, its a tory idea... Life long learning? a Corbyn idea, adopted by Johnson and we all think it was his plan.

But if they mess up, it will be all over the media.

This makes Labour very cautious, which in turn makes them look weak,,, which of course is what the Govt wants.

If the Govt really is in trouble we will get a Meghan Merkle story or Boris has got a dog.

So stuff like CV and deaths, instead of being directed at the Tories, we get "...but what about Labour, they are sooooo weak"

Cant realistically legally prevent people dancing and singing, what a ridiculous notion.

The worried, unvaccinated, vulnerable will have to shield in future

With nightclubs. They've been struggling for a while now - before Covid. People's habits and preferences changing, and I think also to do with high commercial rents and regulation changes. Lots of nightclubs have closed in the last decade. That sector was in trouble long before the pandemic.

And pubs have been struggling ever since the smoking ban.

I was chatting to a school mum at pickup today and she was saying how annoyed she was that rain was forecast for the weekend as she was supposed to be meeting a friend for a walk. I asked her why she couldn't meet her at home or a cafe/pub etc and she said because it's not safe. I just felt sad that she felt this way.

Is she vulnerable or at a higher risk if she were to catch covid? If not I just don’t get this level of fear and caution from healthy low-risk individuals. Does she feel terrified going on a car journey or other activities that statistically pose some degree of risk of death.

@Malteser71

Cant realistically legally prevent people dancing and singing, what a ridiculous notion.

The worried, unvaccinated, vulnerable will have to shield in future

Right so. Millions shield long term so that a minority can immediately go to a nightclub.

Ok. That's millions of people - including many working...and children. Children, who have already spent around a year shielding, missing out on proper education and mixing with their friends.

Nice priorities there. Lock up children long term, because an adult won't temporarily go without getting drunk and dancing and singing in a crowded enclosed space.

Those poor CV and CEV children. Let down by selfish impatient (and drunken) adults.

however long it takes to keep the majority safe

The majority are "safe". We've always known that.

I still don't understand how we we can improve track and tracing people. Surely that's what is happening now? You can't force people to name contacts.

@Tealightsandd

With nightclubs. They've been struggling for a while now - before Covid. People's habits and preferences changing, and I think also to do with high commercial rents and regulation changes. Lots of nightclubs have closed in the last decade. That sector was in trouble long before the pandemic.

'Nightclubs' that are just nightclubs struggled before the pandemic, but not because people's habits have changed. A typical nightclub wouldn't open til 10-11ish and you'd often have to pay to get in and often have to queue. With the change in licensing laws, some of the larger pubs now operate as nightclubs in all but name, except without the entrance fee and earlier opening hours.

People still want to dance and they still do. The nightclub style pub will have a dance floor, less seating, opens in the afternoon til the morning, doesn't charge to get in and punters can come and go as they please. Again, the central idea of people gathering to dance is the same, it's the venue (or the name) that's changed.

You've obviously never read Jane Austen if you think all they did was have tea at home with a select few people. Ever heard of an Assembly Room? It's the Georgian equivalent of a nightclub. The name might have changed but to suggest that people gathering together in large numbers to dance and socialise is a recent thing is laughable.

Jane Austens world was hardly typical of life for the vast majority of people at the time. Most people either lived in tiny rural cottages, barns or rooms or in overcrowded industrial slum housing and diseases of overcrowding were rife. All kinds of lice and bugs, including human fleas, rats, dysentery, typhus, smallpox, measles. My grandmother's sister died of TB in her early 20s.