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Delta variant spreading in schools

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 04/06/2021 15:38

Not posted one of these threads in a while but the data is starting to get interesting again.

The ONS infection survey data from yesterday shows an alarming increase in infection rates in secondary kids. The PHE survey also shows a jump in outbreaks in schools.

However the infection rates by area show that this is much more of a problem in the North West than e.g. the South West. That suggests that in certain areas, the situation is really bad and in others there's not (yet) a problem. This would suggest a localised approach (the govt are really keen not to talk about tiers).

What is obvious is that there are local variant hotspots, and in those hotspots, covid is running through schools, secondary in particular.

What to do? Stopping the spread of the variant out from those areas should be a high priority. Surge vaccination of adults won't be enough if it is spreading mostly in children. It's evident that the measures taken to stop the spread in schools from Sept-Dec were inadequate (isolation of close contacts only) so it seems clear that in those areas, far more robust tackling of cases in schools is needed -PCR testing not LFT, sending home whole year groups, proactively closing schools instead of as last resort. Schools in those areas already seem to have kept masks. We need to be hearing far more of what they are doing about schools in the news and what to expect.

There are those who would argue that the Delta variant should simply be allowed to spread now, however we know that one vaccination doesn't confer much immunity to it and it would be more prudent to wait until a much bigger proportion of the population are double-vaccinated and more fully protected.

There is also the question of allowing covid to spread through schools and the disruption to education that this would cause. The government announced yesterday that they are only willing to fund a pitiful amount of catch-up support and given that the schools affected are currently restricted to certain areas (and ones that were badly affected last year too), parents and pupils in those areas should not be expected to experience severe disruption caused by unmitigated covid spread if it can be dealt with more effectively. It would seem fair for more covid catch-up funding to be directed to those areas hardest hit but I haven't seen that proposed.

A few positive things: We've just had half term and that usually reduces infection rates in school children. Y11 and Y13 have now left, so secondary schools will have a reduced number of pupils. It's also less than 2 months to the summer holidays.

The Pfizer vaccine has just been approved in the UK for ages 12+. Vaccinating secondary children in those hotspots as a priority could be an option. Priority vaccinations for school staff there should be a no-brainer, I assume that has happened.

Unfortunately the government is currently suppressing data on the number of cases of the Delta variant in schools and there is a legal challenge to get this published. Why they are doing this is unclear. I do hope it's not because they want to pretend that schools aren't an issue until it's too late like they did before, but I don't trust them, for obvious reasons.

Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
OP posts:
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13
CallmeHendricks · 04/06/2021 16:53

You might have to say that last sentence again in CAPITALS, noble, as I'm going to predict that some people will misinterpret it/ignore it.

RuleWithAWoodenFoot · 04/06/2021 16:53

Once schools finish for the summer, we can fully reopen then.

That would be the sensible thing to do, so obviously it won't happen.

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 04/06/2021 16:53

Oh... we've also been using seating plans in schools to reduce the number of students who have to quarantine when there is a case of Covid, and we've also been vaccinating 12-18 year olds as fast as possible.

My two high schoolers no longer have to quarantine if they are exposed to Covid.

noblegiraffe · 04/06/2021 16:53

but children won’t ever be vaccinated most likely?

Currently under discussion for age 12+

OP posts:
looptheloopinahulahoop · 04/06/2021 16:54

@Seriously79

Don't you think it's a bit suspicious that 'school cases are rising' just when they have released info of a new vaccine for 12 to 15 year olds 🤔
Or maybe they've made significant efforts to get the vaccine approved because school cases are rising, or were likely to, without vaccinating pupils?
ineedaholidaynow · 04/06/2021 16:55

Some people must have had a really bad education if they can't read what the teachers are writing on this thread. Maybe you should have listened to your teachers more when you were at school too. I would really like @noblegiraffe to be a teacher at DC's school for all her help and support she has given on MN over the years, not just in COVID times

itsgettingwierd · 04/06/2021 16:55

[quote Delatron]@CallmeHendricks but children won’t ever be vaccinated most likely? I think you need to accept that Covid will be circulating in schools for years. And that won’t be a problem. Because most adults and vulnerable people will have had an effective vaccination. You need a reality check.

Anyway. Back in the real world...
If cases in schools don’t lead to a rise in hospitalisations and deaths then nothing will happen. Nada.[/quote]
Vaccines have just been approved for over 12's.

And what if it does cause an increase in hospitalisation s and deaths? What if the government refuse to take mitigation measures and it spreads like it did before and they have to close?

Why are you so insistent on waiting to see if there's a problem instead of engaging in calm rational discussion about how to prevent it being a problem? I seriously just cannot understand that. It's such a non sensical throughly process Confused

PrincessNutNuts · 04/06/2021 16:55

I'd imagine the whole world is waiting for the PHE Delta in schools data.

It's quite relevant to the interests of any country where Delta has recently been detected.

India told us March that they suspected it was more transmissible and seemed to affect younger age groups more.

So I don't suppose anyone will be surprised that the UK's third wave has been building in our largely un-mitigated schools for two months.

However, the actual data would be useful for those trying to work out if this variant is better adapted to spreading in children.

Or if it's something about the set up of schools themselves.

Or are there just as many Delta outbreaks in office blocks and factories?

It's difficult to know without the data isn't it?

The government refusing to tell us probably indicates bad news for school children, school staff, and their families.

As well as the expected trajectory of the Delta wave.

Still...Denial, false optimism, and motivated reasoning have all done Britain proud so far so I expect everything will be fiiiiiiiiiine.

looptheloopinahulahoop · 04/06/2021 16:55

@RuleWithAWoodenFoot

Once schools finish for the summer, we can fully reopen then.

That would be the sensible thing to do, so obviously it won't happen.

I think we should go ahead with outdoor opening on 21 June (but that may have something to do with the fact that I want parkrun back :) ) but reopening mass events indoors is crazy.
CallmeHendricks · 04/06/2021 16:55

"You need a reality check."

I really don't.
And to be honest, I won't be around to care, as I'm heading towards early retirement. Good luck with any children you have and their future journey through school with fewer and fewer qualified and experienced teachers.

ChloeDecker · 04/06/2021 16:56

However, it is safe to say that schools in India did not cause the Delta variant.
Don’t think anyone has said schools cause the Delta variant in India?

It’s interesting that you have written that though because a lot of families who left in December or went out Jan to 8th March due to remote learning (not just India by the way), have been coming back sporadically since March and not all have quarantined properly and sent their children back in to schools before they should have. This will not have helped schools trying to do everything they can with the measures they have.

looptheloopinahulahoop · 04/06/2021 16:57

Also with a son starting university in September I want him to have as normal a uni experience as possible. If covid starts circulating in schools again, older unvaccinated teens and 20 somethings will get it too and then we'll be back to paying thousands for accommodation purely to sit in tiny bedrooms and watch online sessions.

I always thought that school staff (not just teachers) should have been prioritised for the vaccine. Even though it's not super-effective against this latest variant, it is considerably better than being unvaccinated.

JebelSherif · 04/06/2021 16:58

@ZZTopGuitarSolo

Oh... we've also been using seating plans in schools to reduce the number of students who have to quarantine when there is a case of Covid, and we've also been vaccinating 12-18 year olds as fast as possible.

My two high schoolers no longer have to quarantine if they are exposed to Covid.

Which country are you in please? Im surprised to read "....we've also been vaccinating 12-18 year olds as fast as possible."

I don't this thats happened in England.

Mummyoflittledragon · 04/06/2021 16:58

Why the fuck not hide the thread instead of posting crappy comment about the op?

Watching with interest. Thank you for posting noblegiraffe.

RuleWithAWoodenFoot · 04/06/2021 16:59

If cases in schools don’t lead to a rise in hospitalisations and deaths then nothing will happen.

Bit of a day of the week effect going on, but more cases announced in the North West today (1,755) than were announced in the whole of England on 23rd May, twelve days ago (1,723).

101 admissions (second day in a row in three figures), including 38 in the North West

805 beds occupied, including 202 in the North West (was 173 a week ago)

@BristOliver on Twitter. He just does numbers, is non partisan and isn't anti lockdown or anti vaccine.

Links with what the OP was saying about probably needing some sort of regional management.

RedToothBrush · 04/06/2021 17:01

A number of things.

  1. Today Pfizer has been approved for 12 - 15 year olds.
  2. Those people hospitalised with covid are overwhelmingly people who haven't had any vaccination.
  3. Its has been acknowledged that the link between deaths and cases seems to have been broken by vaccination.
  4. Teachers should get vaccinated asap. We are now in the late twenties for who can get a jab. That means most teachers except the most recent graduates are now eligible.
  5. We are detecting outbreaks in schools now and acting accordingly when they happen. This is not like September last year when we weren't.
  6. We can not carry on as we have previously. We now have to start to 'live with' covid as part of everyday life.
  7. 75% of adults have had one dose. 50% have had both.
  8. Second jabs have been rolled forward a number of weeks
  9. We have surge testing going on in badly affected areas

Its all very well saying there is a problem here. The point then is,
well what do we do about it? Is the problem the same seriousness as it was a few months ago? No. What other action can we take? Is it proportionate?

There is no point in identifying a problem without the proposal for what you think should be done to remedy it. Is this realistic? Is it proportionate? I'm struggling at this point to identify new measures which can be put into place to mitigate issues. Masks in classroom? How effective /realistic is that going into hot summer months with teenagers who can meet in groups of up to 30 outside and hug each other (all within rules)?

When you start looking at this, you end up going that on balance we just have to carry on with where we are and doing what we are doing.

The risk to teachers isn't big at all now. (The argument about whether they were exposed to unnecessarily high risk previously, is a different one). On balance it is in kids interests AND now staff's interests to get back to it, with monitoring in place.

Clearly if Pfizer has been approved in the UK for 12 - 15, a vaccination programme for teenagers is definitely on the cards, pending a strategic decision by government at some point about whether to do it or not.

And I haven't even touched on mental health implications. All the kids / teenagers I know have pretty much gone 'feral' in terms of behavior due to circumstances. We have to have some kind of summer where things are semi-normal.

I'm on the cautious side of things here. I thought schools went back a number of weeks too early. I didn't mind lockdowns as much as most.

At this point we are talking about something entirely different and there are limits as to how much more can be done realistically. At what point do we call this and say 'where is the line in the side'?

Have we crossed it? Arguably more or less. Certainly we will by the end of the month - even if the 21st June release date is delayed or scaled back somewhat.

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 04/06/2021 17:02

Which country are you in please? Im surprised to read "....we've also been vaccinating 12-18 year olds as fast as possible."

I don't this thats happened in England.

I'm in the US.

Delatron · 04/06/2021 17:02

Good luck with the retirement @CallmeHendricks

I’m pretty sure that my kids will be just fine. As they have been since they went back at the beginning of March.

The premise of this thread has to be that the vaccines don’t work. And that simply isn’t true. Of course they are having an impact and once the adult population is vaccinated things will be very different. If you choose not to believe that then that’s your choice but it’s not based on any evidence.

itsgettingwierd · 04/06/2021 17:02

@RuleWithAWoodenFoot

If cases in schools don’t lead to a rise in hospitalisations and deaths then nothing will happen.

Bit of a day of the week effect going on, but more cases announced in the North West today (1,755) than were announced in the whole of England on 23rd May, twelve days ago (1,723).

101 admissions (second day in a row in three figures), including 38 in the North West

805 beds occupied, including 202 in the North West (was 173 a week ago)

@BristOliver on Twitter. He just does numbers, is non partisan and isn't anti lockdown or anti vaccine.

Links with what the OP was saying about probably needing some sort of regional management.

Thanks for that data.

It's certainly looking quite contained currently and they have a real opportunity to act here.

I hate the thought of inequality if education where high rate areas have children isolating more often.

Perhaps the government could do a regional measure with schools and use spare building or provide marquees or something for the next half term.

The weather is better and all yr 11 and 13 have finished and a lot of yr 12's have too dependent on course type.

RuleWithAWoodenFoot · 04/06/2021 17:03

Currently under discussion for age 12+

Approved today in the UK.

My two high schoolers no longer have to quarantine if they are exposed to Covid.

That's interesting. I don't think that's the case here yet. Maybe they need to do more work on how transmissable the Delta thing is despite vaccines.

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 04/06/2021 17:04

Masks in classroom? How effective /realistic is that going into hot summer months with teenagers who can meet in groups of up to 30 outside and hug each other (all within rules)?

Indoor exposure vs outdoor exposure is very different and we've known that for a long time now. The chances of being exposed while sitting in a room for an hour with a group of people are much higher than the chances of being exposed when outdoors.

noblegiraffe · 04/06/2021 17:04

Its all very well saying there is a problem here. The point then is, well what do we do about it?

I offered several suggestions in my OP...your post reads like you are arguing with it but seems to agree with it.

OP posts:
ChloeDecker · 04/06/2021 17:05

Very well put ZZTopGuitarSolo

Masks and Ventilation are definitely measures that have been lacking in a lot of classrooms which doesn’t help.

noblegiraffe · 04/06/2021 17:07

Approved today in the UK.

Yes Rule but whether there will be a routine vaccination programme for age 12+ children is with the Joint Committee for Vaccines and Immunisations for discussion.

OP posts:
JebelSherif · 04/06/2021 17:07

@ ZZTopGuitarSolo thanks.

It seems to me that America has really got on a roll with the vaccine programme. Actually, its just been on the news here that one vaccine (the Pfizer one) has been cleared for children aged 12-15, so I suppose we can follow America's lead and that might help the school issue being discussed here, today.

Which vaccine is mostly in use in America: Pfizer, Aztrazeneca (Oxford) or one we don't use (yet)? Im curious to know.