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Delta variant spreading in schools

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 04/06/2021 15:38

Not posted one of these threads in a while but the data is starting to get interesting again.

The ONS infection survey data from yesterday shows an alarming increase in infection rates in secondary kids. The PHE survey also shows a jump in outbreaks in schools.

However the infection rates by area show that this is much more of a problem in the North West than e.g. the South West. That suggests that in certain areas, the situation is really bad and in others there's not (yet) a problem. This would suggest a localised approach (the govt are really keen not to talk about tiers).

What is obvious is that there are local variant hotspots, and in those hotspots, covid is running through schools, secondary in particular.

What to do? Stopping the spread of the variant out from those areas should be a high priority. Surge vaccination of adults won't be enough if it is spreading mostly in children. It's evident that the measures taken to stop the spread in schools from Sept-Dec were inadequate (isolation of close contacts only) so it seems clear that in those areas, far more robust tackling of cases in schools is needed -PCR testing not LFT, sending home whole year groups, proactively closing schools instead of as last resort. Schools in those areas already seem to have kept masks. We need to be hearing far more of what they are doing about schools in the news and what to expect.

There are those who would argue that the Delta variant should simply be allowed to spread now, however we know that one vaccination doesn't confer much immunity to it and it would be more prudent to wait until a much bigger proportion of the population are double-vaccinated and more fully protected.

There is also the question of allowing covid to spread through schools and the disruption to education that this would cause. The government announced yesterday that they are only willing to fund a pitiful amount of catch-up support and given that the schools affected are currently restricted to certain areas (and ones that were badly affected last year too), parents and pupils in those areas should not be expected to experience severe disruption caused by unmitigated covid spread if it can be dealt with more effectively. It would seem fair for more covid catch-up funding to be directed to those areas hardest hit but I haven't seen that proposed.

A few positive things: We've just had half term and that usually reduces infection rates in school children. Y11 and Y13 have now left, so secondary schools will have a reduced number of pupils. It's also less than 2 months to the summer holidays.

The Pfizer vaccine has just been approved in the UK for ages 12+. Vaccinating secondary children in those hotspots as a priority could be an option. Priority vaccinations for school staff there should be a no-brainer, I assume that has happened.

Unfortunately the government is currently suppressing data on the number of cases of the Delta variant in schools and there is a legal challenge to get this published. Why they are doing this is unclear. I do hope it's not because they want to pretend that schools aren't an issue until it's too late like they did before, but I don't trust them, for obvious reasons.

Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
CallmeHendricks · 06/06/2021 15:40

@Delatron

To be fair *@noblegiraffe* after all your posts in March came to nothing I’m not sure many people apart from your little group are interested in your interpretation of the data. Bit like the boy who cried wolf unfortunately.
Came to nothing? From what I recall, *@noblegiraffe* has been proven right on virtually everything she's posted.
ChloeDecker · 06/06/2021 15:40

Sadly, already happening on a few threads Neverendingstory356

Appuskidu · 06/06/2021 16:01

@Neverendingstory356

Cue now all the U4T posters filing in to say that school must stay open at all costs, but they are absolutely not vaccinating their children.
Or ‘muzzling’ them, or doing LFD tests or keeping them off school if they have symptoms/are close contacts!
Delatron · 06/06/2021 16:07

@CallmeHendricks I think it’s well known that the predicted spike in cases after all the kids went back in March didn’t happen. But I’m sure you’ll didn’t a way to claim otherwise. So yes all her Jan/Feb/ March constant posts came to nothing and hence she has been quiet with nothing to post about until a new variant has emerged.

Luckily it’s not Jan now and schools break up in July..

Piggywaspushed · 06/06/2021 16:10

Did in my school. Had to send the whole of the sixth form home twice.

itsgettingwierd · 06/06/2021 16:11

[quote Delatron]@CallmeHendricks I think it’s well known that the predicted spike in cases after all the kids went back in March didn’t happen. But I’m sure you’ll didn’t a way to claim otherwise. So yes all her Jan/Feb/ March constant posts came to nothing and hence she has been quiet with nothing to post about until a new variant has emerged.

Luckily it’s not Jan now and schools break up in July..[/quote]
The LFT really did help with this. Also the staggered starts.

No child who was asymptomatic started until 10 days after the test. This helped keep it out for longer.

Also people were much better at LFT back then but as more and more bubbles have burst compliance has waned because they don't want a positive because they don't enact to isolate again. Hence more and more asymptomatic cases creeping in. With a more transmissible variant this was always going to have the same effect as the Kent one did when again - no litigations existed and it got in and got around.

Whilst this has happened they've removed mandatory masks.

And now they've removed mandatory masks they've decided to announce what we've all been saying for ages - hence the need for mitigation measures - and wanting to really push the vaccination programme for secondary school kids due to transmission rates.

The good news is they've said data has shown the vaccines so far have shown to begin to break the cycle. They haven't yet but hopefully by autumn it'll have have completely broken the chain. 🤞

ChloeDecker · 06/06/2021 16:16

it’s well known that the predicted spike in cases after all the kids went back in March didn’t happen.

Secondary school pupils were wearing masks in classrooms back in March so there’s some proof they were working back then. However, since then and the mask removal in classroom guidance, there of course has been a spike, hence the comments from our Health Sec today.

Delatron · 06/06/2021 16:28

At a national level the predicted spike when the kids went back in March didn’t happen. So it was the correct decision and it would have been hugely detrimental to many children’s mental health and education if we’d waiting until after Easter (end of April) as many posters on here were pushing for.

Yes masks and LFT may have helped. I’m pretty sure the vaccination program did as well as I am of the opinion that rates in schools reflect rates in the community in general.

What is there, 6 weeks left of summer term? I don’t think much is going to happen between now and then. More and more adults are getting vaccinated and it’s summer. So plenty of opportunity for kids to be outside.

Mistressiggi · 06/06/2021 16:30

Outside at secondary level? Doing what though?

itsgettingwierd · 06/06/2021 16:35

@Delatron

At a national level the predicted spike when the kids went back in March didn’t happen. So it was the correct decision and it would have been hugely detrimental to many children’s mental health and education if we’d waiting until after Easter (end of April) as many posters on here were pushing for.

Yes masks and LFT may have helped. I’m pretty sure the vaccination program did as well as I am of the opinion that rates in schools reflect rates in the community in general.

What is there, 6 weeks left of summer term? I don’t think much is going to happen between now and then. More and more adults are getting vaccinated and it’s summer. So plenty of opportunity for kids to be outside.

I don't understand your point?

Right NOW we have an epidemic problem in schools at the same time as them removing masks. At the same time as the vaccination programme not being at optimum.

It may not have made any difference if we'd sited those 2 weeks in March or not. But not every school went back on the 8th. Most actually went back after 2 LFT and it was almost 2 weeks later. They isolated positives and numbers were much lower.

We didn't do the same after Easter and we know from here how many parents haven't insisted on LFT.

Cases have got into schools now whilst they are now rising in the community. We need measures now to prevent more detrimental effects of isolation (MH own words) on students education for the next 7 weeks.

We owe it to the pupils to keep them in school as much as possible. And that requires mitigation's that they are also required to adhere to once the exit the school walls.

Iggly · 06/06/2021 16:50

@Delatron

At a national level the predicted spike when the kids went back in March didn’t happen. So it was the correct decision and it would have been hugely detrimental to many children’s mental health and education if we’d waiting until after Easter (end of April) as many posters on here were pushing for.

Yes masks and LFT may have helped. I’m pretty sure the vaccination program did as well as I am of the opinion that rates in schools reflect rates in the community in general.

What is there, 6 weeks left of summer term? I don’t think much is going to happen between now and then. More and more adults are getting vaccinated and it’s summer. So plenty of opportunity for kids to be outside.

Why would the school rates reflect community rates? There’s more mixing in schools and the wider geographical community for secondary may be bigger.

Furthermore, the vaccine isn’t as effective after one dose against the delta variant. So the number of second doses is critical.

Getawaywithit · 06/06/2021 17:13

Why would the school rates reflect community rates?

Dunno? But at a guess, children don’t exist within a vacuum. They do sports classes, and dancing, and gymnastics. They go to the supermarket, in cafes and to the cinema. They have sleepovers with friends and they take public transport to/from school. Some older students work. All that is an opportunity for the virus to spread into the wider community.

Jesus fucking wept.

cantkeepawayforever · 06/06/2021 17:19

Iggly, I think the issue is that the probability of Covid getting into a school is reflective of community rates.

However, within schools it can then spread very fast unless cases are very quickly isolated. Hence, for example, despite my living in a VERY low case area, a local school has had 10 cases over the last few days, all in a single year group, building on a number of smaller groups having to isolate over the last few weeks before half term.

Unless schools are VERY on top of SI after individual cases (another local school shut down a whole year group + school transport for a single IV case), the lack of effective mitigations within school can lead to larger outbreaks.

Unfortunately, parents often prefer not to get children tested, because of the economic impact on the family (especially in more deprived areas), so will often keep them off for a couple of days for 'a cold' or 'a tummy bug' before sending them back in.

cantkeepawayforever · 06/06/2021 17:22

Until 17th May, cases within a school had limited routes back into the wider community except to individual family members (though the opening up of children's after school activities was beginning to cause some trouble - very large number of cases across multiple schools linked to a weekend performing arts club, for example).

Now, mixing is so much greater that the routes of transmission are greatly multiplied. I'm not entirely looking forward to facing a maskless group of over 30 tomorrow, all of whom have been away, mixing with very large numbers of people, over half term trips to all parts of the country.

borntobequiet · 06/06/2021 17:41

I think it’s well known that the predicted spike in cases after all the kids went back in March didn’t happen.

It would never have happened immediately or within a few weeks, partly because when schools opened they weren’t properly open, and the Easter holidays came soon afterwards. Now and in the next few weeks is exactly when we should see cases surge. That was the pattern in the Autumn - it really took off in the second half of October, after the half term (when cases flattened off and dropped a bit).

Waveifyouknowme · 06/06/2021 18:10

Unless schools are VERY on top of SI after individual cases (another local school shut down a whole year group + school transport for a single IV case), the lack of effective mitigations within school can lead to larger outbreaks

Unless you are unlucky enough to be in a school that does LF rather than isolation

noblegiraffe · 06/06/2021 18:44

[quote Delatron]@CallmeHendricks I think it’s well known that the predicted spike in cases after all the kids went back in March didn’t happen. But I’m sure you’ll didn’t a way to claim otherwise. So yes all her Jan/Feb/ March constant posts came to nothing and hence she has been quiet with nothing to post about until a new variant has emerged.

Luckily it’s not Jan now and schools break up in July..[/quote]
Oh mate, how embarrassing for you, you were so confident in your assumption that I wanted schools closed (because hey, that's what I always want, according to some people) that you didn't bother to actually check what I said, did you?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4170592-The-government-is-about-to-tell-you-that-schools-are-safe

19th Feb, in advance of schools re-opening on March 8th, what I said was: "What can be done? I think there is room to open schools in some way on March 8th. My personal preference (and I'm no spokesperson for teachers here, other opinions will vary) would be primaries back and exam years back for three weeks, then Easter can be used to examine the impact of the full primary re-opening....Secondary is a different kettle of fish and should be treated separately. Secondaries were a massive risk for transmission. The word 'bubble' should never be used in reference to secondary schools again, as 'bubble' means a group of people who all have to isolate if one of them catches covid, which went in the bin in secondary around the end of September. There are some easy wins in secondary -
Masks in classrooms would be easy and cheap to implement. Exemptions would apply and clear ones could be provided where necessary for lip reading. ...."

I did say other stuff like ventilation, you can obviously read my full post in the link.

But as it was, schools went back on 8th March, with the addition of masks in classrooms for secondary (plus testing of all pupils before the return).

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Delatron · 06/06/2021 18:55

I’m so grateful that secondary schools didn’t go back after Easter like you wanted @noblegiraffe
That would have been awful for so many children.

I’m not embarrassed at all. I didn’t agree with you then and thankfully the schools all went back and it was fine.

noblegiraffe · 06/06/2021 18:58

I’m so grateful that secondary schools didn’t go back after Easter like you wanted

I said my personal preference would be exam years back before Easter, because I assumed that the government would not budge on masks in classrooms and would just have schools back with no additional measures. If that had been the case, then reducing numbers would have been sensible.

I note that you didn't acknowledge that I said schools could go back in some form on 8th March despite your claim that I said it would be doom if they did.

But then I'm used to people spouting shit and then saying that I said it.

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Delatron · 06/06/2021 19:03

You wanted a huge percentage of the school population to stay off until after Easter. That would have been hugely detrimental (and as we saw unnecessary) to thousands of children.
I know it’s hard to be wrong though...

noblegiraffe · 06/06/2021 19:06

Indeed, because the government very surprisingly implemented masks in classrooms (which I had, if you recall, been banging on about for quite a few months).

So you were wrong that I said that schools should stay shut, yes? And that what I actually said was that they could re-open, but that additional measures should be taken in secondary to mitigate transmission? And that's what happened?

OP posts:
Chillychangchoo · 06/06/2021 19:33

This reply has been deleted

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herecomesthsun · 06/06/2021 20:18

@noblegiraffe

Us4them have had a petition running for a few weeks against vaccinating kids. Even though they'll be able to opt out of it for their children if/when the time comes, it very important that no child gets vaccinated.

They really are the pits.

I have a pet theory that they are really some sort of slitheen

tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Slitheen_family

They are representing the coronavirus in human form. They want it to take over the planet....

noblegiraffe · 06/06/2021 20:28

You think it's Us4Them where the Them is actually Covid?

That actually makes sense. Someone has to stand up for it, represent its interests.

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MilesJuppIsMyBitch · 06/06/2021 21:10

I'm picturing all of them slipping out of their human suits and just floating about in their true form: little balls with spikes sticking out of them.

Is Boris Harriet Jones in this scenario?