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Delta variant spreading in schools

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 04/06/2021 15:38

Not posted one of these threads in a while but the data is starting to get interesting again.

The ONS infection survey data from yesterday shows an alarming increase in infection rates in secondary kids. The PHE survey also shows a jump in outbreaks in schools.

However the infection rates by area show that this is much more of a problem in the North West than e.g. the South West. That suggests that in certain areas, the situation is really bad and in others there's not (yet) a problem. This would suggest a localised approach (the govt are really keen not to talk about tiers).

What is obvious is that there are local variant hotspots, and in those hotspots, covid is running through schools, secondary in particular.

What to do? Stopping the spread of the variant out from those areas should be a high priority. Surge vaccination of adults won't be enough if it is spreading mostly in children. It's evident that the measures taken to stop the spread in schools from Sept-Dec were inadequate (isolation of close contacts only) so it seems clear that in those areas, far more robust tackling of cases in schools is needed -PCR testing not LFT, sending home whole year groups, proactively closing schools instead of as last resort. Schools in those areas already seem to have kept masks. We need to be hearing far more of what they are doing about schools in the news and what to expect.

There are those who would argue that the Delta variant should simply be allowed to spread now, however we know that one vaccination doesn't confer much immunity to it and it would be more prudent to wait until a much bigger proportion of the population are double-vaccinated and more fully protected.

There is also the question of allowing covid to spread through schools and the disruption to education that this would cause. The government announced yesterday that they are only willing to fund a pitiful amount of catch-up support and given that the schools affected are currently restricted to certain areas (and ones that were badly affected last year too), parents and pupils in those areas should not be expected to experience severe disruption caused by unmitigated covid spread if it can be dealt with more effectively. It would seem fair for more covid catch-up funding to be directed to those areas hardest hit but I haven't seen that proposed.

A few positive things: We've just had half term and that usually reduces infection rates in school children. Y11 and Y13 have now left, so secondary schools will have a reduced number of pupils. It's also less than 2 months to the summer holidays.

The Pfizer vaccine has just been approved in the UK for ages 12+. Vaccinating secondary children in those hotspots as a priority could be an option. Priority vaccinations for school staff there should be a no-brainer, I assume that has happened.

Unfortunately the government is currently suppressing data on the number of cases of the Delta variant in schools and there is a legal challenge to get this published. Why they are doing this is unclear. I do hope it's not because they want to pretend that schools aren't an issue until it's too late like they did before, but I don't trust them, for obvious reasons.

Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Scrambledcustard · 05/06/2021 18:51

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/bolton-shows-vaccines-seem-broken-20748200

"NHS Providers chief executive, Chris Hopson, said the number of people in hospital with the Covid-19 variant first detected in India - known as the Delta variant - was not increasing “very significantly”.

Many of those in hospital in Bolton – which has the highest number of cases of the Indian variant in England – were younger than in previous waves of the pandemic, he told BBC Breakfast. Those in hospital with Covid in Bolton have been 'a lot younger' than in previous waves

“The people who came in this time round were actually a lot younger and were a lot less at risk of very serious complication, less at risk of death, and what that means is that they were less demand on critical care,” he said.

“What we think we can start to say now, based on that experience, is that it does look as though the vaccines have broken the chain between catching Covid-19 and potentially being very, very seriously ill and potentially dying.

“There were very, very few people who have had those double jabs and had been able to have that build-up of protection after those jabs.”

Well this is great news!

colouringcrayons · 05/06/2021 18:56

@looptheloopinahulahoop

So far it hasn't been very deadly in children

It hasn't in my age group either, but I don't think anyone wants long covid, and that's the issue in my view. imagine being struck down by long covid when you're 16. It's bad enough it ruining your life in your 40s but at that age you've hardly started living.

I totally agree, I really would hate for my child's life to be impacted this way, could change their whole life.
noblegiraffe · 05/06/2021 18:58

Great news that the new variant is putting more young people in hospital than previously?

I mean, it's positive that they are less likely to die, but celebrating them being in hospital in increased numbers seems a bit odd.

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Getawaywithit · 05/06/2021 19:03

But children get sick all the time and have time off school. An individual get sick and has individual time off. The vast majority of children asymptomatic.There has to be a point when we live with this rather than batten down the hatches when a new variant comes - which they mutate all the time.The vulnerable have been vaccinatedThe over 40s have been vaccinated The 20s/30 have very very little chance of dying from Children have 0.1% chance of dying from it

Erm....asymptomatic children still spread the virus. Including to the adults who work with them. That includes the adults who have been vaccinated. So whilst they may no longer die of covid (hurrah!), there are no guarentees that they won't be off for 3 days/3 weeks/3 months or longer. One staff member of sick for a couple of days is manageable. One off for longer is also manageable, although it might be your child that is then taught by a series of supply teachers for a couple of terms. But several teachers off at the same time, not so manageable. There is a national shortage of teachers and if my inbox is anything to go by (I haven't taught supply for 5 years now), the supply agencies are also experiencing a shortage of teachers (because lots of supply were older teachers, seeing out their careers) Lots of asymptomatic spreading means year groups close, classes close, whole school ends up closing. It won't happen to most of us but I can guarentee will happen to a great many of us. You can't keep schools open by putting your head in the sand.

cantkeepawayforever · 05/06/2021 19:12

I think it is very right to see Covid in schools as an educational issue, as well as a health one.

One case in a school can lead to, on average, 20-30 pupils isolating, so being taught online for 7-10 days. If it is primary, so the whole class + teacher are isolating, that's not TOO bad , as unless the teacher is ill, live teaching online similar to that in lockdown can be provided straightforwardly.

However, where it is a few children from lots of different groups / subjects, then the online learning may be much less good - as the teacher is in school teaching the remainder of the class, the online learning for some is compromised compared with either in-school or online-only offerings.

If the staff become ill, that's a real educational disadvantage to all of their pupils - it could be several weeks missing the class or subject teacher, and instead having one or more supply teachers or cover supervisors. If it's a teacher in a small department, then the class may have no specialist input at all while the teacher is ill.
Even if you really don't mind at all about children's illness and the risk to staff and family contacts (because they're less likely to die than earlier in the pandemic), simply from the point of view of your own child's quality of education, you should be striving to keep Copvid out of schools and promoting all measures that reduce the probability of transmission within schools.

SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo · 05/06/2021 19:14

“There were very, very few people who have had those double jabs and had been able to have that build-up of protection after those jabs.”

double jabs

double jabs

What have a lot of teachers not had?

Double jabs.

(Add a beat to that and we might just have a Eurovision hit.)

cantkeepawayforever · 05/06/2021 19:16

A LOT of teachers have not had 1 jab yet. It is quite common in primaries at least to have a staff that is all under 30 except for the head.

Scrambledcustard · 05/06/2021 19:19

@noblegiraffe

Great news that the new variant is putting more young people in hospital than previously?

I mean, it's positive that they are less likely to die, but celebrating them being in hospital in increased numbers seems a bit odd.

Noble I think I can tell your a glass half empty type of person.

No one is celebrating anything - but it IS very positive. Sorry if this information doesn't fit your narrative.

The people who came in this time round were actually a lot younger and were a lot less at risk of very serious complication, less at risk of death, and what that means is that they were less demand on critical care,” he said

What we think we can start to say now, based on that experience, is that it does look as though the vaccines have broken the chain between catching Covid-19 and potentially being very, very seriously ill and potentially dying

No need for the handwringing over schools again. Sorry.

squiddylama · 05/06/2021 19:21

I think a lot of the issue are back office staff who have no need to be on site being told they have to go back. (For my college anyway!)
We are a college so student numbers are managed but there are so many staff who worked from home successfully but now are forced to come back and add to the staff room/canteen etc for no good reason.

Scrambledcustard · 05/06/2021 19:22

@SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo

“There were very, very few people who have had those double jabs and had been able to have that build-up of protection after those jabs.”

double jabs

double jabs

What have a lot of teachers not had?

Double jabs.

(Add a beat to that and we might just have a Eurovision hit.)

ah so we're on to all teachers need double jabs now? Well that goal post changed..
Piggywaspushed · 05/06/2021 19:24

To be fair it seems to be PHE and HMGov who have 'moved that goalpost' or perhaps you haven't seen the recent data?

SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo · 05/06/2021 19:24

it does look as though the vaccines have broken the chain between catching Covid-19 and potentially being very, very seriously ill and potentially dying

Yes, for people who are FULLY VACCINATED. Holy Christ, how many times. Why are you trying to prove a point by posting things that actually prove the opposite? Is it fun? Are you having a lovely time?

SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo · 05/06/2021 19:27

@Scrambledcustard Yes, everybody needs two jabs, no the goalposts haven’t moved, that’s literally how the vaccines work.

I used to teach English as a foreign language to adults who spoke no English.

That fact that it was easier to get them through their first unit that it is for some people to understand this point is giving me life right now.

Scrambledcustard · 05/06/2021 19:29

@Piggywaspushed

To be fair it seems to be PHE and HMGov who have 'moved that goalpost' or perhaps you haven't seen the recent data?
What goal posts did they move?

or is NHS Providers chief executive, Chris Hopson lying?

colouringcrayons · 05/06/2021 19:29

ah so we're on to all teachers need double jabs now?

Nope, we are exactly where we have always been - you can't let a horrid virus run rife through schools so you need proper mitigation.

I often wonder - who is actually philosophically opposed to improving ventilation in schools? Why are we even discussing this more than a year after we first had to close schools? It just feels like some people have a desire to oppose anything that could help.

noblegiraffe · 05/06/2021 19:31

Yes, you need double jabs, because the data shows that a single jab isn't particularly effective against this variant.

Single jabs appeared to be good enough for Kent.

Some people really need to read the news before they start spouting off.

OP posts:
SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo · 05/06/2021 19:31

or is NHS Providers chief executive, Chris Hopson lying?

NHS Provideds chief executive Chris Hopson who said “fully vaccinated/double jab”? As in, having received both vaccines?

chocolateisavegetable · 05/06/2021 19:31

Maybe we really do need to extend the school day, given the lack of reading comprehension skills demonstrated by certain posters

Piggywaspushed · 05/06/2021 19:31

About how much protection single and double jabs provide. Been well publicised.

Scrambledcustard · 05/06/2021 19:33

[quote SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo]@Scrambledcustard Yes, everybody needs two jabs, no the goalposts haven’t moved, that’s literally how the vaccines work.

I used to teach English as a foreign language to adults who spoke no English.

That fact that it was easier to get them through their first unit that it is for some people to understand this point is giving me life right now.[/quote]
Yes I know every one needs two jabs - but it was never a stipulation to keep schools open though was it?

I work in the NHS, lots of us haven't had two jabs either.

Scarletbutnotohara · 05/06/2021 19:33

@Piggywaspushed

Why wouldn't you have had the jab, out of interest scarlet? What's changed? I know a 17 year old with CF and life has been tough for them ...effectively expected to take risks at school every day. He is now jabbed and happy.
Because I’m worried that I’ve had a jab that will kill me. My life expectancy is about 50 years old if I’m lucky. That’s only 12 years. I don’t want to cut my life short and the science is telling me that’s what I’ve done.
SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo · 05/06/2021 19:34

“There were very, very few people who have had those double jabs and had been able to have that build-up of protection after those jabs.”

This bit - from the article you posted. Fully vaccinated = have had both jabs. He also mentions that “build up of protection” referring to the 2/3 weeks it takes after the second vaccine for the antibodies to ramp up so you are fully protected.

That’s what he means by “fully vaccinated”. That’s what “fully vaccinated” has meant for yonks.

noblegiraffe · 05/06/2021 19:35

but it was never a stipulation to keep schools open though was it?

Where did anyone say that it was? No one has said this.

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Piggywaspushed · 05/06/2021 19:37

It really isn't scarlet . You are in more danger of complications form covid, surely you know that/have been told that?

SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo · 05/06/2021 19:37

Yes I know every one needs two jabs - but it was never a stipulation to keep schools open though was it?

No one said it was a stipulation, just pointed out that as most teachers haven’t been fully vaccinated, and teenagers’ rates of infections are high, it’s not impossible for teachers to get ill and off sick and learning to be disrupted again for the kids. Which I very much don’t want, for the kids’ sake. This doesn’t mean schools need to be closed, it means mitigations could keep schools open and functioning until the summer holidays, which benefits everyone.