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Delta variant spreading in schools

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 04/06/2021 15:38

Not posted one of these threads in a while but the data is starting to get interesting again.

The ONS infection survey data from yesterday shows an alarming increase in infection rates in secondary kids. The PHE survey also shows a jump in outbreaks in schools.

However the infection rates by area show that this is much more of a problem in the North West than e.g. the South West. That suggests that in certain areas, the situation is really bad and in others there's not (yet) a problem. This would suggest a localised approach (the govt are really keen not to talk about tiers).

What is obvious is that there are local variant hotspots, and in those hotspots, covid is running through schools, secondary in particular.

What to do? Stopping the spread of the variant out from those areas should be a high priority. Surge vaccination of adults won't be enough if it is spreading mostly in children. It's evident that the measures taken to stop the spread in schools from Sept-Dec were inadequate (isolation of close contacts only) so it seems clear that in those areas, far more robust tackling of cases in schools is needed -PCR testing not LFT, sending home whole year groups, proactively closing schools instead of as last resort. Schools in those areas already seem to have kept masks. We need to be hearing far more of what they are doing about schools in the news and what to expect.

There are those who would argue that the Delta variant should simply be allowed to spread now, however we know that one vaccination doesn't confer much immunity to it and it would be more prudent to wait until a much bigger proportion of the population are double-vaccinated and more fully protected.

There is also the question of allowing covid to spread through schools and the disruption to education that this would cause. The government announced yesterday that they are only willing to fund a pitiful amount of catch-up support and given that the schools affected are currently restricted to certain areas (and ones that were badly affected last year too), parents and pupils in those areas should not be expected to experience severe disruption caused by unmitigated covid spread if it can be dealt with more effectively. It would seem fair for more covid catch-up funding to be directed to those areas hardest hit but I haven't seen that proposed.

A few positive things: We've just had half term and that usually reduces infection rates in school children. Y11 and Y13 have now left, so secondary schools will have a reduced number of pupils. It's also less than 2 months to the summer holidays.

The Pfizer vaccine has just been approved in the UK for ages 12+. Vaccinating secondary children in those hotspots as a priority could be an option. Priority vaccinations for school staff there should be a no-brainer, I assume that has happened.

Unfortunately the government is currently suppressing data on the number of cases of the Delta variant in schools and there is a legal challenge to get this published. Why they are doing this is unclear. I do hope it's not because they want to pretend that schools aren't an issue until it's too late like they did before, but I don't trust them, for obvious reasons.

Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
TheHoneyBadger · 05/06/2021 14:09

I want schools open whatever the cost!!! Oh unless it means having my child muzzled or having to take a vaccine Hmm

I especially love seeing teachers being berated for wanting mitigations by people who are fully vaccinated and have worked from home for over a year now!

You couldn't make this shit up.

lljkk Sat 05-Jun-21 13:41:40
I bet vaccine uptake is close to 99% in all 'professions' that require a Uni degree

I suspect you're right lljkk.

Regulus · 05/06/2021 14:14

itsgettingwierd I know the answer to this , it's the school boundary, it's like a force field. When I cross the road from my school to the doctors I Am At Risk. I have to obey the one way system, social distance, put on a clean mask and the doctor wears lots of ppe including eye protection, thats providing they think I am poorly enough to warrant a f2f appointment.

Meanwhile once I've crossed back into the school Van Tam, Harris etc says I Am Safe with no ppe, no ventilation and no social distancing. In any other situation people would be aghast as the complete idiocrasy . (Just for clarity I am not a teacher)

TeddingtonTrashbag · 05/06/2021 15:05

But children get sick all the time and have time off school. An individual get sick and has individual time off. The vast majority of children asymptomatic.There has to be a point when we live with this rather than batten down the hatches when a new variant comes - which they mutate all the time.The vulnerable have been vaccinatedThe over 40s have been vaccinated The 20s/30 have very very little chance of dying from Children have 0.1% chance of dying from it
@Scrambledcustard
You are making a valiant effort but you must surely realise the entrenched and orchestrated pile-on that these threads always get from people who have closed mindsets and are not interested in listening to logic.
Go and enjoy the sunshine - you are absolutely spot on in your arguments but they are wasted on this lot 😀

Piggywaspushed · 05/06/2021 15:18

Closed mindsets. Oh the delicious irony.

Delatron · 05/06/2021 15:19

Exactly @TeddingtonTrashbag
Calm logic not welcome here. I should have learnt in March when there was hysteria then about the schools finally opening. To be fair most people have learnt to ignore these threads and leave them to it.

TheHoneyBadger · 05/06/2021 15:27

Calm logic and the use of the word 'muzzling' to describe wearing a paper face mask do not go together.

Calm logic doesn't read, 'let's try and make schools as safe as we can' and scream, 'see you want to close the schools!'. Calm logic doesn't say I want schools open no matter the cost and then balk at any cost whatsoever eg. wearing a facemask.

noblegiraffe · 05/06/2021 15:28

Was your post deleted because of the calm logic it contained, Delatron?

You already said you didn't understand the purpose of this thread which as you were told was to have a calm discussion of the data. The grown-ups are doing that. Others are just bitching about the fact that the thread even exists.

OP posts:
TheHoneyBadger · 05/06/2021 15:31

Why does it anger them so much for people to even discuss ways of improving safety in schools? It's really bizarre.

I keep thinking of the Lego Movie and 'Everything is Awesome!' having to be pumped out non stop.

Delatron · 05/06/2021 15:32

To be fair @noblegiraffe after all your posts in March came to nothing I’m not sure many people apart from your little group are interested in your interpretation of the data. Bit like the boy who cried wolf unfortunately.

noblegiraffe · 05/06/2021 15:34

after all your posts in March came to nothing

We got masks in classrooms despite a government lobbying group issuing legal challenges.

OP posts:
CricketsBats · 05/06/2021 15:40

We'd have been better off spending those track and trace billions on safer schools and putting in things like ventilation.

No one knows what the virus will do. What we do know is that every single transmission is a chance for it to mutate. So far it hasn't been very deadly in children but that doesn't mean that will hold true for new variants if they are allowed to emerge. It's foolhardy to think "we just have to live with it" at this point in the pandemic. We still don't know enough about it

SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo · 05/06/2021 15:42

Over 40s are vaccinated

Well, if you understand that “vaccinated” needs to be fully vaccinated, then no, they are not. I’m 40 something, had my first in May, will have my second in July, so will be fully protected from mid August. But I’ve already said this and it’s been ignored. Surely those without a closed mindset would be able to acknowledge this? Yet... they don’t. It’s almost like their argument doesn’t make sense Smile

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 05/06/2021 15:49

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/06/01/covid-19-cases-will-likely-rise-again-fall-heres-how-keep-schools-open/

It’s about the US but still relevant. Ways to keep schools open when Covid cases rise again with the cold weather.

steakandcheeseplease · 05/06/2021 16:08

I especially love seeing teachers being berated for wanting mitigations by people who are fully vaccinated and have worked from home for over a year now!

Thats the crux of the matter though isn't it. Those mitigations could never be achieved so the schools closed. Where as now, because of the vaccination roll out, were in a different situation - they don't need too.

Is 'more safety measures/mitigations' now euphemisms for school closure? Grin

SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo · 05/06/2021 16:20

Is 'more safety measures/mitigations' now euphemisms for school closure?

Only for people with no reading or comprehension skills. Apparently.

cantkeepawayforever · 05/06/2021 16:28

Where as now, because of the vaccination roll out, we're in a different situation - they don't need to.

I don't think it will be necessary to proactively close down the whole nation's schools, no.

I do think that, as in November / December, there will be a mixture: some schools unaffected; some schools lightly affected (a few small groups have to isolate, or a single year group once); some schools dramatically affected (repeated isolation for some children / year groups, sometimes leading to full school closure).

The thing is, if we think about the % of people vaccinated, we imagine that unvaccinated percentage randomly distributed across the country - and in that case, the partial herd immunity created by the incomplete vaccination programme may be sufficient to isolate individual cases or clusters of cases.

However, with age group vaccination, what has happened is that there are some environments where virtually everyone will be fully vaccinated (care homes); some where there is a mixture (your average shop or office workplace) and some where the unvaccinated are collected together in very large numbers (schools). Since schools are Covid insecure by nature, collecting a pool of susceptible people together under excellent transmission conditions every day will lead to pools of infection / reinfection, where viral load is high. With many school staff still not being fully vaccinated (nobody under 50 is fully vaccinated where I work), those staff - and vulnerable children - have very high exposure to these pools of infection (and mutation).

Schools should not be closed BUT it is absolutely worth making them safer.

MilesJuppIsMyBitch · 05/06/2021 16:39

I'm getting a strange feeling of de ja vu...

Thanks for continuing to highlight this stuff @noblegiraffe , despite the avalanche of utter nonsense it always attracts Thanks

itsgettingwierd · 05/06/2021 16:45

@Regulus

itsgettingwierd I know the answer to this , it's the school boundary, it's like a force field. When I cross the road from my school to the doctors I Am At Risk. I have to obey the one way system, social distance, put on a clean mask and the doctor wears lots of ppe including eye protection, thats providing they think I am poorly enough to warrant a f2f appointment.

Meanwhile once I've crossed back into the school Van Tam, Harris etc says I Am Safe with no ppe, no ventilation and no social distancing. In any other situation people would be aghast as the complete idiocrasy . (Just for clarity I am not a teacher)

It's actually quite ironic that your called Regulas because we've never I hear about this forcefield of protection around schools it reminds me of the scene in HP where McGonangall calls for the spell and they all wave their wands and produce a shield. 🤣
itsgettingwierd · 05/06/2021 16:49

@TeddingtonTrashbag

But children get sick all the time and have time off school. An individual get sick and has individual time off. The vast majority of children asymptomatic.There has to be a point when we live with this rather than batten down the hatches when a new variant comes - which they mutate all the time.The vulnerable have been vaccinatedThe over 40s have been vaccinated The 20s/30 have very very little chance of dying from Children have 0.1% chance of dying from it *@Scrambledcustard* You are making a valiant effort but you must surely realise the entrenched and orchestrated pile-on that these threads always get from people who have closed mindsets and are not interested in listening to logic. Go and enjoy the sunshine - you are absolutely spot on in your arguments but they are wasted on this lot 😀
Making a valiant effort?

She herself admits she's spent most of the year shielding and priority vaccinated.

I find it most interesting how those who haven't been out and about as it's hit it peak and been on the front line seeing for themselves what happens have no concern about it happening. Of course you have different concerns - because you haven't seen it. It's hard to imagine if you've never experienced it.

But the number of nhs staff who now suffer ptsd from the real frontline should tell a story.

Scarlett I'm sorry you have have CF and I know that makes life very difficult for you as it's a difficult disease - but trust me. If you hadn't been shielding you'd have seen the realism of this. As it is I'm glad you've had the opportunity to shield and keep safe and I hope you come not to regret being vaccinated because it could have made a life changing difference to you.

itsgettingwierd · 05/06/2021 16:50

@SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo

Is 'more safety measures/mitigations' now euphemisms for school closure?

Only for people with no reading or comprehension skills. Apparently.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
sherrystrull · 05/06/2021 17:22

@Delatron

To be fair *@noblegiraffe* after all your posts in March came to nothing I’m not sure many people apart from your little group are interested in your interpretation of the data. Bit like the boy who cried wolf unfortunately.
I tell you what I appreciate. When I'm at home or in school worrying about these things on my own or with my colleagues it's actually amazing to read threads where these issues are discussed and raised by people who are far more eloquent than me.

I agree that people saying for the past year and a bit that teachers are overestimating their risk while simultaneously wfh and vaccinated as well as having no idea of what it's like in school continue to astound me with their sheer arrogance and selfish mindset.

TheHoneyBadger · 05/06/2021 17:41

The boy who cried wolf? Have you left the house in the last year or so? Turned on the tv. God help us.

Sherry it's awful how much they want to silence people discussing concerns and what we could do to make everyone safer from the comfort of their shielded/work from home/husband pays the bills armchairs.

Glad you find comfort in people talking about things no matter how keen a few 'muzzle'twerps try to silence conversation.

MilesJuppIsMyBitch · 05/06/2021 17:45

Me too, @sherrystrull . Noble's threads kept me sane last year, amongst all the madness.

looptheloopinahulahoop · 05/06/2021 17:47

So far it hasn't been very deadly in children

It hasn't in my age group either, but I don't think anyone wants long covid, and that's the issue in my view. imagine being struck down by long covid when you're 16. It's bad enough it ruining your life in your 40s but at that age you've hardly started living.

itsgettingwierd · 05/06/2021 18:09

Wry true about delay in children and even younger staff age groups.

We had a child come into school with it. Asymptomatically. Only knew about it when staff member caught it and everyone was tested.

Every single person in that class caught it within 3 days of each other.

Sadly so did everyone in the minibus the asymptomatic child got to school. Including the escort - who died Sad