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Delta variant spreading in schools

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 04/06/2021 15:38

Not posted one of these threads in a while but the data is starting to get interesting again.

The ONS infection survey data from yesterday shows an alarming increase in infection rates in secondary kids. The PHE survey also shows a jump in outbreaks in schools.

However the infection rates by area show that this is much more of a problem in the North West than e.g. the South West. That suggests that in certain areas, the situation is really bad and in others there's not (yet) a problem. This would suggest a localised approach (the govt are really keen not to talk about tiers).

What is obvious is that there are local variant hotspots, and in those hotspots, covid is running through schools, secondary in particular.

What to do? Stopping the spread of the variant out from those areas should be a high priority. Surge vaccination of adults won't be enough if it is spreading mostly in children. It's evident that the measures taken to stop the spread in schools from Sept-Dec were inadequate (isolation of close contacts only) so it seems clear that in those areas, far more robust tackling of cases in schools is needed -PCR testing not LFT, sending home whole year groups, proactively closing schools instead of as last resort. Schools in those areas already seem to have kept masks. We need to be hearing far more of what they are doing about schools in the news and what to expect.

There are those who would argue that the Delta variant should simply be allowed to spread now, however we know that one vaccination doesn't confer much immunity to it and it would be more prudent to wait until a much bigger proportion of the population are double-vaccinated and more fully protected.

There is also the question of allowing covid to spread through schools and the disruption to education that this would cause. The government announced yesterday that they are only willing to fund a pitiful amount of catch-up support and given that the schools affected are currently restricted to certain areas (and ones that were badly affected last year too), parents and pupils in those areas should not be expected to experience severe disruption caused by unmitigated covid spread if it can be dealt with more effectively. It would seem fair for more covid catch-up funding to be directed to those areas hardest hit but I haven't seen that proposed.

A few positive things: We've just had half term and that usually reduces infection rates in school children. Y11 and Y13 have now left, so secondary schools will have a reduced number of pupils. It's also less than 2 months to the summer holidays.

The Pfizer vaccine has just been approved in the UK for ages 12+. Vaccinating secondary children in those hotspots as a priority could be an option. Priority vaccinations for school staff there should be a no-brainer, I assume that has happened.

Unfortunately the government is currently suppressing data on the number of cases of the Delta variant in schools and there is a legal challenge to get this published. Why they are doing this is unclear. I do hope it's not because they want to pretend that schools aren't an issue until it's too late like they did before, but I don't trust them, for obvious reasons.

Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
OP posts:
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BustopherPonsonbyJones · 05/06/2021 12:18

This is what I would like:

  • priority vaccines/boosters for school staff and vulnerable children in recognition of the fact that schools are places where Covid spreads like wildfire
  • masks to be work in classrooms whilst variants remain a concern
  • money spent by the government to improve ventilation
  • money spent by the government to provide extra space so schools have a better chance of enabling social distancing
  • the same laws (guidance?) to apply to schools and those who work in them as are applied elsewhere.

I want schools to stay open. I want children to learn in schools. I want to be as protected as any other worker. I want children to be protected to the same level as adults. My ‘wants’ do not need to be mutually exclusive. I should be able to have them all.

@Scarletbutnotohara
Throughout this pandemic, Schools. Are. Not. And. Were. Not. Safe.

  • but we could make them as safe as possible if we actually tried.

The. End.

CallmeHendricks · 05/06/2021 12:19

@Scarletbutnotohara, I'm not sure how you are reading "hysteria" in anyone's posts. Nor where I have indicated I'm "this worried" about Covid. I'm not, particularly, as it happens, on my own account.
I'm participating in a forum debate without making it personal about myself.
But you carry on making up whatever suits your agenda.

Babymeanswashing · 05/06/2021 12:20

I honestly think my area must have been quite good with vaccines. All over 30s done.

noblegiraffe · 05/06/2021 12:20

@Flaxmeadow

Sorry I haven't read the full thread but your graphs in the OP seem to show

One week for the geographical regions, general population

Six months for the schools graph and with no comparison to the general population

How are supposed to understand anything from this?

I have no idea what graphs you are looking at, but not apparently the ones in my OP.

First graph - clearly showing that unlike other age groups in the general population there has been a sharp increase in infection rates in secondary school aged children.

Second graph - showing an increase in infection rates in the North West and to a lesser extent the Midlands not really matched in other areas. We know that these areas are particularly affected by the Delta variant.

Third graph - confirming that covid outbreaks are on the increase in schools.

Conclusion - covid infection rates are rising in secondary school age children, most likely infection rates are much worse than the national average for that age group in the areas affected by the Delta variant, and that there are areas of the country where infection rates, including in school children, are very low.

Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
OP posts:
cauliflowersqueeze · 05/06/2021 12:20

No I didn’t say that.

CallmeHendricks · 05/06/2021 12:23

@ichundich, "So you do want schools closed."

How do make that leap from what that poster actually wrote?

Scarletbutnotohara · 05/06/2021 12:26

I would like to see all school staff given priority for the vaccine- to those that WANT it.
Better ventilation in schools and smaller class sizes should be a things anyway. Even pre-covid. Not going to happen though.
Masks to be worn in communal areas- but not whilst children are seated in their classrooms.

Onceuponatime1818 · 05/06/2021 12:28

I’ve been teaching throughout and haven’t managed to book my first vaccine yet, in my 30s with a heart condition. It’s quite scary.

roguetomato · 05/06/2021 12:29

@Scarletbutnotohara

I can see that even after children are vaccinated (and I doubt the uptake will high) people will STILL be panicking. You can’t force children - or adults- to have the vaccine. FWIW I’ve had both vaccines, and pretty early on, as I’m in the vulnerable category. If I could turn back time, I wouldn’t have got sucked into the hysteria and wouldn’t have had the jab!
Wow, it's nice to say that you are fully vaccinated and say those who aren't and wanting protection is having hysteria reaction.

Once the children are vaccinated, the infection rate will reduce, so there will be no panicking by those who are worried that children's education being disrupted.

Regulus · 05/06/2021 12:29

[quote CallmeHendricks]@ichundich, "So you do want schools closed."

How do make that leap from what that poster actually wrote?[/quote]
I know, words fail me. There are definitely people on this thread with an agenda and it is not the OP

CallmeHendricks · 05/06/2021 12:30

@Scarletbutnotohara I'm not sure what circles or forums you usually mix in, but I don't know a single teacher in real life (or on here, for that matter) who wouldn't jump at the chance of being vaccinated.

And it is whilst children are seated in cramped and unventilated classrooms facing the teacher that the (airborne) virus is at most risk of spreading. Why do you believe that it the time for them to remove any masks?

Scarletbutnotohara · 05/06/2021 12:30

No, I want to see everyone that wants to have a vaccine, can have it. If that’s school teachers, then of course I want them to have it. Whatever makes them FEEL safe. So we can just get on with life now. That would be great.

BustopherPonsonbyJones · 05/06/2021 12:30

What’s your profession, Scarlet? Are you a teacher? I was thrilled when I was vaccinated as I could see my working conditions were not safe and it offered me, personally, considerable reassurance despite the known risks from the vaccine. On a personal level, I feel safe in my workplace at this moment of time. As an observer of what is happening and what might happen in the future if we don’t acknowledge what conditions are like, I think there is great potential for further disruption if we don’t address the issues within schools.

Scarletbutnotohara · 05/06/2021 12:31

[quote CallmeHendricks]@Scarletbutnotohara I'm not sure what circles or forums you usually mix in, but I don't know a single teacher in real life (or on here, for that matter) who wouldn't jump at the chance of being vaccinated.

And it is whilst children are seated in cramped and unventilated classrooms facing the teacher that the (airborne) virus is at most risk of spreading. Why do you believe that it the time for them to remove any masks?[/quote]
Because they have never had a place in the classroom.

Scarletbutnotohara · 05/06/2021 12:32

The us4them group has plenty of teachers NOT begging for a jab....

Babymeanswashing · 05/06/2021 12:33

I’m not begging for a jab but I don’t feel unsafe tbh. I obviously recognise that’s not the case for everybody.

Notonthestairs · 05/06/2021 12:34

Are you a member of Us4Them @Scarletbutnotohara How would you know?

Babymeanswashing · 05/06/2021 12:35

I follow them on FB. It’s entertaining Grin

CallmeHendricks · 05/06/2021 12:35

Well, I wouldn't touch that group with a barge pole but I do understand that it will attract people who are obviously anti-vaxx/anti-mask etc..
So, it's not really a representative sample, is it?

Flaxmeadow · 05/06/2021 12:36

No your graphs fo not show that. Infact the school one shows infection rates remaining steady.

You have also shown a general population graph of a week period, compared to a school graph of a six month period

CallmeHendricks · 05/06/2021 12:36

"Because they have never had a place in the classroom."

Well, we've never had Covid circulating in classrooms either, but it is what it is.

Scarletbutnotohara · 05/06/2021 12:40

@BustopherPonsonbyJones

What’s your profession, Scarlet? Are you a teacher? I was thrilled when I was vaccinated as I could see my working conditions were not safe and it offered me, personally, considerable reassurance despite the known risks from the vaccine. On a personal level, I feel safe in my workplace at this moment of time. As an observer of what is happening and what might happen in the future if we don’t acknowledge what conditions are like, I think there is great potential for further disruption if we don’t address the issues within schools.
I’m a housing officer.
Scarletbutnotohara · 05/06/2021 12:41

@Notonthestairs

Are you a member of Us4Them *@Scarletbutnotohara* How would you know?
I’m in the Facebook group. Just like anyone can be! Some of the admin are teachers, and plenty of the fb group members are!
itsgettingwierd · 05/06/2021 12:42

@itsgettingwierd

Scarlet of school teachers are safe - why aren't other adults?

If school teachers are safe in unventilated rooms for 6 hours with no SD or masks - why aren't other adults?

I've obviously missed this report over the last year and would love the link to this. It would make me feel much safer in my classroom. Also it'll make me question if I'm actually as unsafe as they seem to think I am when I do my shopping and must by law Sd and wear a mask.

I'm sure Scarlett you didn't mean to deliberately ignore my post as I'm sure you want to provide this link to the evidence.

So I've copied it her for you again in case you missed it.

You clearly have some evidence the teaching staff would love to see to prove how teachers are safe in school but not out.

noblegiraffe · 05/06/2021 12:43

@everythingthelighttouches

Hi noblegiraffe

Did you see this thread on twitter from one of the PHE team (Isaac Florence) who produces the data?

I really don’t know what to make of it. I’m not sure the conclusion he comes to is correct.

I’d be really interested to know your thoughts on it.
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1400739255169716225.html

Some highlights..
“ Data from the Case and Incident Management System (CIMS) is hugely biased towards Health Protection Team (HPT) prioritisation. During Covid this means what data is captured there varies through time and by region ...

As Delta variant’s case numbers have risen, there are more outbreaks in all settings and some of those settings are prioritised. For example outbreaks related to schools are intensively managed and so will all end up on CIMS...”

Yes, I did see that. It's not entirely clear what he is referring to (especially as PHE are currently being directed by the government to suppress their data on case numbers of the variant in schools) but it could be that he is trying to justify data that is producing graphs like the attached.

The problem with PHE data all along is that it the case numbers from their testing has been affected by factors that mean that they do not reliably represent infection rates in given groups. At the beginning, when PHE data was the result of people with symptoms going for tests, we know that it severely underreported cases in children as they often didn't have symptoms with covid, or didn't have the symptoms that would trigger a test.
He would be totally correct to point out that the graph attached is misleading because outbreaks in educational settings are (finally) being followed up rigorously in a way that one related to a shop might not be, so the two bars cannot be fairly compared.

This is why all along I've used the ONS random sampling survey data, because it estimates infection rates rather than providing case numbers. It doesn't rely on people having symptoms or going for tests.

I've been pretty happy with the ONS data up till yesterday. I've read reports on here and in the news of schools with cases of the Delta variant where it seems to spread rapidly, but it hadn't seemed to be making a dent on the national data so it could be seen as a minor, containable issue. Yesterday I looked at the ONS data for secondary kids and said 'oh fuck'.

Now as I said in my OP, there are positives - the infection rate should go down next week because of half term (if it doesn't, that's a real worry), and Y11 and 13 leaving should help. But we shouldn't ignore it and hope that we can just press through to summer.

Delta variant spreading in schools
Delta variant spreading in schools
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