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Australia says no to AZ and J&J vaccines--vax rollout likely to be delayed by months

539 replies

Kokeshi123 · 13/04/2021 03:23

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/13/australia-wont-buy-johnson-johnsons-one-dose-covid-vaccine-due-to-astrazeneca-similarities

I know quite a lot of Ozzies who are completely stranded outside their country due to the fact that they cannot keep small children within a hotel room for two weeks and pay a fortune for the priviledge. As it is, it's looking like Oz will not be removing its quarantine requirements until well into 2022 at the earliest.

I mean, I do think that a basic strategy of "(1) Hold borders tight with Zero Covid until the vax>(2) Unroll vax> (3) Open borders" is a sound one, but it does depend on the second and third bits of the plan actually happening...

OP posts:
Tealightsandd · 15/04/2021 20:37

The clotting is extremely rare, and I saw one (not yet reviewed) study suggesting it's asymptomatic covid causing the clots, rather than the vaccines. Either way the risk of clotting is way higher from covid than the incredibly rare side effect.

I'd say the one possible concern is long covid. We know mild initial infection is all it takes to cause it. I guess that's the main reason why preventing any infection is preferable.

anyoldtime · 15/04/2021 20:47

The clotting is extremely rare

Time will tell what the effects of AZ are. I know a 20 year old in hospital who had a stroke a week after getting it. AZ is not even being mentioned as a possible cause.
I know somebody else who spent days in hospital with blood clotting in the same week she had the AZ vaccine.
I myself was sent to hospital with effects from it and the effects are back today. I’m beyond worried now.
Nobody knows what the effects of AZ will be but 25/30 different countries have suspended or restricted it, preferring not to vaccinate than use it. Let’s hope they are all wrong. Somehow I think this is only going to get worse.

ajandjjmum · 15/04/2021 20:50

@anyoldtime
Of the dozens of people I know who have had the AZ vaccine, literally a handful have felt 'off' for a day. I know no-one who has had anything like the effects you mention.

MarshaBradyo · 15/04/2021 20:51

[quote ajandjjmum]@anyoldtime
Of the dozens of people I know who have had the AZ vaccine, literally a handful have felt 'off' for a day. I know no-one who has had anything like the effects you mention.[/quote]
Me too

flyornofly · 15/04/2021 20:52

@MarshaBradyo the other factor is that at the moment I am allowed to work remotely but will probably be back in the office in September (and I have a job that has to be done with others). So I figure that if I want to go in the next year it’s better to go sooner.

I suppose if a miracle happened and they allowed home quarantine i could then go again with family at Christmas - but that would be a nice problem to have!

I don’t know, I’m in 2 minds. I really don’t want to be away from my kids for 3 weeks, nor do I want to do quarantine. But I also really want to see my family and I don’t think I can handle waiting another year.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 15/04/2021 20:54

[quote ajandjjmum]@anyoldtime
Of the dozens of people I know who have had the AZ vaccine, literally a handful have felt 'off' for a day. I know no-one who has had anything like the effects you mention.[/quote]
Me too.

anyoldtime · 15/04/2021 20:57

I know 4 people who went and/or spent time in hospital after the AZ. I only know approx 30 people who have had it!

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 15/04/2021 21:01

Extraordinary.

anyoldtime · 15/04/2021 21:08

Extraordinary

You do realise these are actual people - , sons and daughters and parents of young children. So fuck right off with your patronising reply. It is concerning. It is worrying. It is terrifying.

spottygymbag · 15/04/2021 21:11

@psychomath

Thanks spottygymbag.

Tealights surely there's a middle ground there though, i.e. if the issue is too few quarantine spaces and flights, the government could organise charter flights and build more holding facilities so people could get back in without endangering existing residents. Maybe some compromise system where the government pays the hotel cost for children under 18 and adults fund it themselves. It's not like the only two options are not helping any of their own citizens get back vs open borders and a free for all.

Increasing the number of people coming increases the risk to put it bluntly. There are numerous potential ways a breach could occur and the program has to control for those. More incoming means more potential breaches.

Larger facilities like Howard springs have been mooted but would have their own challenges to get off the ground- federal backing, relocation of adf, police and health staff, transport to and from etc

You also can't take every hotel and turn it into a quarantine facility. They don't all meet the standard to be safely used for that purpose. It may not be financially viable for individual hotels to participate. They also still have to cater for the local market.

The quarantine costs are subsidised and exemptions can be applied for. There was no cost initially but that is not sustainable.

For all of the options more spaces also means more staffing- not just joe blogs off the street (because that didn't work out so well for us) but police, adf and healthcare workers. They can be scaled up but there isn't a massive pool to draw from whilst still remaining operational elsewhere.

There are similar issues for providing healthcare. Covid is still coming in, these people often need medical intervention and hospitalization. Again the numbers need to be kept low so breaches within hospitals can be minimised.

The 36000 is a rolling number, it's not that every single one of those has been stranded since the beginning of all this. As pp have said people have joined as their circumstances have changed.

I think the airlines could be more transparent about their bookings to save the heartache and frustrations of those getting bumped off flights and I wonder if a quota within flights would be possible to make it fairer. But then I also realize that the airlines are struggling too and need to make a profit to continue to operate. A lot of airlines won't even fly here because Australia removed the option of quarantining at home for air crew after suspected breaches resulted in local transmission.
So I'm hoping the NZ bubble gives Oz the chance to work through things and gives enough confidence to pursue a bubble with Singapore in the longer term.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 15/04/2021 21:22

@anyoldtime

Extraordinary

You do realise these are actual people - , sons and daughters and parents of young children. So fuck right off with your patronising reply. It is concerning. It is worrying. It is terrifying.

Maybe, but it’s still a ginormous statistical fluke.
spottygymbag · 15/04/2021 21:26

@Tealightsandd

The clotting is extremely rare, and I saw one (not yet reviewed) study suggesting it's asymptomatic covid causing the clots, rather than the vaccines. Either way the risk of clotting is way higher from covid than the incredibly rare side effect.

I'd say the one possible concern is long covid. We know mild initial infection is all it takes to cause it. I guess that's the main reason why preventing any infection is preferable.

We have had clotting cases here in Oz- unlikely (but not impossible) to be asymptomatic covid given the current situation.
coogee · 15/04/2021 21:30

I know 4 people who went and/or spent time in hospital after the AZ. I only know approx 30 people who have had it!

That's around 13% of the people you know. If that is typical of everybody who has had the AZ vaccine in the UK there should be well over 3 million people with similar problems.

If that is the case, I'm surprised that we haven't heard more about it.

Tealightsandd · 15/04/2021 21:33

That's a good point spottygymbag
I guess it's a risk benefit balance. You're in a good position to hold off. It's a much more urgent need in the UK. It still seems rare, I think. Millions have now had AZ. I hope it turns out to be extremely rare. So much of the world particularly poorer countries were relying on it.

anyoldtime · 15/04/2021 21:35

Only one of the four people was told it ‘could’ be related to AZ.
Everything else is a coincidence. Absolute bullshit.
One is now being investigated for DVT and again nothing to do with AZ apparently. Yet this this is not seen as a statistical fluke.at all.
This is going to be a huge scandal in years to come.

spottygymbag · 15/04/2021 21:37

I was at the drs yesterday for my flu shot and DS's 1yr vaccinations. Next cubicle over in the vaccination room was a slightly older couple getting their AZ shot.
I found it uplifting, you could hear they were excited too.

spottygymbag · 15/04/2021 21:41

@anyoldtime

Only one of the four people was told it ‘could’ be related to AZ. Everything else is a coincidence. Absolute bullshit. One is now being investigated for DVT and again nothing to do with AZ apparently. Yet this this is not seen as a statistical fluke.at all. This is going to be a huge scandal in years to come.
Thanks for the update- I try to follow what's unfolding but it's been a crazy week.
MarshaBradyo · 15/04/2021 21:54

Even if not all were told it could be related to AZ more of us would be posting about increase in hospital admissions amongst people we know.

I don’t think a scandal is there. But I do think vaccines are getting us out of this, thankfully.

MarshaBradyo · 15/04/2021 22:06

[quote flyornofly]@MarshaBradyo the other factor is that at the moment I am allowed to work remotely but will probably be back in the office in September (and I have a job that has to be done with others). So I figure that if I want to go in the next year it’s better to go sooner.

I suppose if a miracle happened and they allowed home quarantine i could then go again with family at Christmas - but that would be a nice problem to have!

I don’t know, I’m in 2 minds. I really don’t want to be away from my kids for 3 weeks, nor do I want to do quarantine. But I also really want to see my family and I don’t think I can handle waiting another year.[/quote]
So tough. It sounds like your family is younger than mine (I have 16 yr old, 11 and youngest) and I know in the early years the need to go back felt incredibly strong and I’d go each year nearly.

Even so I still feel really worried about being blocked out. It’s so hard.

I think maybe you should go but I understand it’s really not an easy decision.

I’m also a bit worried that if I actually really need to go that that’s still an option.

bluetongue · 15/04/2021 22:24

@Youhavetoquitwhileyoureahead

It will be really interesting to see what happens to emigration, Keating. People emigrating to Australia now are presumably not doing so in the belief that there will always be unrestricted travel to see relations in the future. Because even if/when it's reinstated, it seems at least plausible that if there's another virus the restrictions will be back. In the 1960s people on the £10 boats presumably did so in the knowledge that they might rarely see their families again (expense). They still went though.

Over to Aus and N/Z mners: is there any concern about the impact on emigration to Aus/N/Z, or is that not really regarded as an economic necessity/benefit to society?

This is a huge concern. Pre Covid immigration numbers were huge (probably too many coming in to be honest) I believe the highest in the OECD. Plus international students were big business. There is definitely pressure to allow international borders to open for economic reasons.

I’m a bit disappointed that some Mumsnetters see Australians as insular people that never want to leave the country. The truth is that many of us love trapping abroad and a third were born overseas.

spottygymbag · 15/04/2021 22:25

News this morning- vaccinated Aussies could bypass hotel quarantine and only have to do it at home. Limited to special circumstances first. Billed as next step in opening up and moving to accept covid.

Australia says no to AZ and J&J vaccines--vax rollout likely to be delayed by months
Australia says no to AZ and J&J vaccines--vax rollout likely to be delayed by months
worriedatthemoment · 15/04/2021 22:42

@Tealightsandd how could we achieve it we are not one single Island or do N Ireland not count? Also we rely heavily on imports from Europe than come by road and rail
We are not in anyway the same as australia or Nz how can people still be saying this really can you not see the huge difference

anyoldtime · 15/04/2021 23:22

Even if not all were told it could be related to AZ more of us would be posting about increase in hospital admissions amongst people we know.

This was posted this eve on another covid thread.

The new weekly yellow card report is out. Since the previous week, around one million more first AZ doses were given in the UK. Presumably mostly to younger people. 21 more blood clots were reported. 3 more people died. Unfortunately the MHRA is refusing to say when these incidents happened (the FT did ask) so it’s hard to interpret the numbers, but they do now seem more in line with what’s been reported in Germany, Denmark and Norway.

The MHRA is also beginning to admit there is a higher risk for younger people.

The data suggest there is a higher incidence reported in the younger adult age groups and the MHRA advises that this evolving evidence should be taken into account when considering the use of the vaccine.’

How much longer until this translates into new guidance for the vaccine rollout?

hodgebit · 15/04/2021 23:33

That's around 13% of the people you know. If that is typical of everybody who has had the AZ vaccine in the UK there should be well over 3 million people with similar problems. .If that is the case, I'm surprised that we haven't heard more about it.

If 13% of those receiving AZ vaccine ended up in hospital as a result, we'd have well of 1 million hospitalisations (though we wouldn't as we don't have anything close to 1 million spare beds so we'd have 100,000s of sick people languishing at home. That's clearly a bullshit statistic of the highest order!

anyoldtime · 15/04/2021 23:58

hodgebit

Firstly I’m in Ireland.
Secondly we are being sent to hospital for tests, sent home again and then back in as the issues are not resolving.
Two of the four people I know were kept in hospital. One stroke. One blood clotting. The 20 year old was told the stroke related to something else. The blood clotting person was a mystery. The DVT case was not hospitalised but was sent for blood tests, told everything was fine, back to her GP a week later because everything is not fine and was sent back to hospital for further tests.

Bearing in mind GP visits in Ireland are €65 per visit, people are not going there lightly.

The new info in the yellow card system in the UK states in one week 21 more blood clotting incidences and 3 more deaths. Get your heads out of the sand. This is an unknown vaccine with serious and fatal side effects!

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