Australia says no to AZ and J&J vaccines--vax rollout likely to be delayed by months

[Kokeshi123]

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/13/australia-wont-buy-johnson-johnsons-one-dose-covid-vaccine-due-to-astrazeneca-similarities

I know quite a lot of Ozzies who are completely stranded outside their country due to the fact that they cannot keep small children within a hotel room for two weeks and pay a fortune for the priviledge. As it is, it's looking like Oz will not be removing its quarantine requirements until well into 2022 at the earliest.

I mean, I do think that a basic strategy of "(1) Hold borders tight with Zero Covid until the vax>(2) Unroll vax> (3) Open borders" is a sound one, but it does depend on the second and third bits of the plan actually happening...

There are different kinds of problems. All sympathy for not letting economically struggling Aussies in and I wish we were being more accommodating . Also, there is a valid legal argument on citizenship rights.
Also agree people didn’t move with the expectation of being cut off. But, does that really mean people shouldn’t be able to adapt? Life is so much easier when you can adapt because it doesn’t go as expected, as it will almost never go as expected. As it is we now live in what in very recent times what was an unthinkable amount of face contact available, it’s just not as much as people had expected to have.
(I don’t mean don’t support the court case, I think that’s quite reasonable)

@timeisnotaline

There are different kinds of problems. All sympathy for not letting economically struggling Aussies in and I wish we were being more accommodating . Also, there is a valid legal argument on citizenship rights. Also agree people didn’t move with the expectation of being cut off. But, does that really mean people shouldn’t be able to adapt? Life is so much easier when you can adapt because it doesn’t go as expected, as it will almost never go as expected. As it is we now live in what in very recent times what was an unthinkable amount of face contact available, it’s just not as much as people had expected to have. (I don’t mean don’t support the court case, I think that’s quite reasonable)

People who move o/s are very good at adapting but there’s no point in telling people not to have the concerns they do even though digital comm exists.

Are you in the same position? Ie parents o/s

Also agree people didn’t move with the expectation of being cut off. But, does that really mean people shouldn’t be able to adapt? Life is so much easier when you can adapt because it doesn’t go as expected, as it will almost never go as expected.

As Marsha said, people who emigrate tend to be pretty good at adapting, and

I find it really curious that there is such a strident resistance by some on this thread and others to allow people in our situation to talk about - and share with each other - our worries and fears in this situation. Instead people invent positions for us to make us look unreasonable - total lies, often, accuse us of wanting to end international border restrictions immediately, of wanting to kill millions. When really all that most of us are saying is that this is pretty hard for us, and we’d quite like to know what the government’s plan is because the lack of one is exacerbating our worry and uncertainty - and our ability to adapt and make decisions about our future.

Decisions to move abroad are rarely easy and are often fraught with emotion and compromise especially when it involves marriage or similar to someone of a different nationality. So this had changed these calculations, and yes the time period and plan for reopening does matter in how we adapt our plans and lives long term. If there will be tough border restrictions until 2024 let me know, I’ll whack in DH’s spouse visa application tomorrow because that would be a step too far for me. But i don’t know - and this thread has just shown that no one knows, courtesy of all the over-confident ‘that doesn’t mean x, it means y!’ interpretations of waffle language my government ministers where x and y tend to vary widely from poster to poster.

I’ll also admit to being surprised at just how emotional I’ve found the degree to which my own country has been happy to erode my citizenship rights, and how happy it has been to almost exclusively promote access to the rich.

As Marsha said, people who emigrate tend to be pretty good at adapting, and

Maybe we aren’t good at finishing sentences though. What I wanted to say was that we are adapting - but are we the only people in the pandemic who aren’t allowed to speak about the challenges involved in that adaptation?

I’ve certainly adapted. My husband and I have become aunts and uncle to 4 new people in this last year 😯 and we’ve been introduced online. Also, pub quizzes, drinks and funerals online.

My interest in the border issues (now, not at the height of the carnage last year) is that it seems increasingly based on politics rather than science. Not altogether, but some. Not only Australia, but also here in Europe. Nationalism and populist politics is becoming more mainstream and also authoritarian approaches. I’m not suggesting that Australia or European governments are such governments, but what people feel is safe and acceptable is influenced by bigger things than Covid so it’s interesting to observe. Globalism and liberalism seems to be becoming less mainstream.

I’ll reiterate, Australia’s Covid response has saved many lives clearly and stopped the huge backlog of untreated diseases that may have happened if they’d let Covid go rife. I’m not suggesting Australia has an authoritarian regime because they’ve done well to get rid of Covid. I’m commenting on the broader general trends that seem to be influencing politics.

100% to your post, @newstart1234. The politics of the border question(s) is both fascinating and disturbing and feels like it could become a flashpoint of populism.

There is worry and concern, and that’s perfectly reasonable. It’s when people start saying being unable to travel for a few years means life is irrevocably ruined. That is lacking a bit of perspective.
I haven’t made up any lies but if that’s happened above in the thread I can see that’s annoying!
Re my family - have been for a long time, coincidentally moved closer end 2019 so we were very lucky. I have 4 siblings plus nieces and nephews living away however (different towns/countries all so not together) who completely agree with me. We are trying to tentatively plan our next meet up because that will be great. They will all cope until we can.

It’s when people start saying being unable to travel for a few years means life is irrevocably ruined. That is lacking a bit of perspective.

I’ve missed the posts where those things have been said. I’m on phone so I will do an advanced search later.

However it is fair to say that we’ve lost things, and will continue to lose things, that we’ll never get back. Life will go on,

I’ll admit to being bitter that my husband’s parents (who make no effort, we always have to go to visit them, call them, etc - in normal times my parents see much more of my kids than they will) get to spend time with my kids when they are 8 and 4, 9 and 5 and probably 10 and 6. I won’t meet my nephew until he’s at least three. These are all losses. Is my life ruined? No, but I can see how for other people, in different circumstances with much greater losses than mint fairly workaday ones - which still cause me and my family pain - then those losses might make it feel that a life that was already difficult might now have permanently crossed a line.

I’m sympathetic to that, because my immigrant life has been a fairly privileged one (though if I hadn’t had those privileges I may not have agreed to be a permanent immigrant).

And yes before anyone comes to lecture me I know that if my family had all died of Covid they’d never get to see them again. Thank you for that....

I meant to say - I don’t think my own life is ruined, by a long stretch. I have a relatively stable, happy life with a good job and lovely family here on Post-Apocalypse Plague Island (to take the view of some on these threads). My Australian family are brilliant and amazing and are still a major part of our lives with no guilt or pressure. I’m very lucky overall.

But I can have sympathy for those whose struggles are greater and who are having more difficulty in adapting and ‘just getting ok with it’, particularly those who are facing the prospect of major loss from what now feels like an insurmountable distance.

I haven’t said ruined either but with siblings around the world and not knowing when Aus will be possible one is easier than the other.

Another poster eloquently outlined the concerns, maybe on another thread, I won’t repeat them, but there were many in same position who agreed.

After over a year some posters are agreeing it’s a hard situation, as with all of this just letting people talk about actual experience is fine. If it’s not what you’re dealing with then great.

Ah ok, I found the ‘irrevocably ruined’ post - from a week ago, only one.
(And the only one to say lives were being ruined at all.) it clearly came from a position of high emotion. It was a poster talking about her father in law’s grief at never being able to see his dying sibling again - not quite the same as ‘ being unable to travel for a few years means life is irrevocably ruined’. Because I think we all recognise that a toxic combination of grief and guilt can have a huge negative impact.

I’m quite struck though that people have piled in on that single post from 8 days ago rather than what most people are currently discussing on the thread?

I wasn’t accusing you of lies, so I’m sorry if it came across that way. Tealights has repeatedly claimed I’ve said things I haven’t, and has offered neither citation nor apology to either back up her position or say sorry for getting it wrong and making horrible accusations. For me, that crosses a line into lying.

And yes, we will all cope until we see our families again. Is it ok if we talk about some of the challenges and frustrations in the meantime, though?

@JassyRadlett

Also agree people didn’t move with the expectation of being cut off. But, does that really mean people shouldn’t be able to adapt? Life is so much easier when you can adapt because it doesn’t go as expected, as it will almost never go as expected.

As Marsha said, people who emigrate tend to be pretty good at adapting, and

I find it really curious that there is such a strident resistance by some on this thread and others to allow people in our situation to talk about - and share with each other - our worries and fears in this situation. Instead people invent positions for us to make us look unreasonable - total lies, often, accuse us of wanting to end international border restrictions immediately, of wanting to kill millions. When really all that most of us are saying is that this is pretty hard for us, and we’d quite like to know what the government’s plan is because the lack of one is exacerbating our worry and uncertainty - and our ability to adapt and make decisions about our future.

Decisions to move abroad are rarely easy and are often fraught with emotion and compromise especially when it involves marriage or similar to someone of a different nationality. So this had changed these calculations, and yes the time period and plan for reopening does matter in how we adapt our plans and lives long term. If there will be tough border restrictions until 2024 let me know, I’ll whack in DH’s spouse visa application tomorrow because that would be a step too far for me. But i don’t know - and this thread has just shown that no one knows, courtesy of all the over-confident ‘that doesn’t mean x, it means y!’ interpretations of waffle language my government ministers where x and y tend to vary widely from poster to poster.

I’ll also admit to being surprised at just how emotional I’ve found the degree to which my own country has been happy to erode my citizenship rights, and how happy it has been to almost exclusively promote access to the rich.

So much this.

+1 to all of these points. It’s a curious imperative people have to shut down conversation about how the lack of visibility and the uncertainty are impacting our lives and relationships.

The more I think about the ‘why can’t you just adapt’ comments, the more I think they’re a bit thoughtless and why they rankle.

I assume that they’re aimed at people like me - cut off from family for an indeterminate number of years. Which fine, yes, we’re obviously adapting.

But it’s not really thinking deeper than that. How does a person ‘adapt’ to not being able to get to his dad before he died of cancer because the government permission and flight didn’t come through in time?

How does a person ‘adapt’ to her mum not being able to come and support her after her baby died?

Existing tragedies are compounded by this, just like the tragedies of the people who were forced to die alone in the UK. Telling people to ‘adapt’ to the extra level of heartbreak is pretty insensitive - just as I wouldn’t dream of telling someone in the UK who wasn’t able to be with a loved one at a tough time over the last year that they should just get over it, it was worth it to save lives. It would be staggeringly insensitive to do so.

Please note I’m also not saying these restriction shouldn’t have existed. The administration of them could have been better, as well as more equitable access to flights. And yes please, I’d like to know the exit strategy so I can minimise the risks around my own upcoming and unavoidable heartbreaks.