Australia says no to AZ and J&J vaccines--vax rollout likely to be delayed by months

[Kokeshi123]

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/13/australia-wont-buy-johnson-johnsons-one-dose-covid-vaccine-due-to-astrazeneca-similarities

I know quite a lot of Ozzies who are completely stranded outside their country due to the fact that they cannot keep small children within a hotel room for two weeks and pay a fortune for the priviledge. As it is, it's looking like Oz will not be removing its quarantine requirements until well into 2022 at the earliest.

I mean, I do think that a basic strategy of "(1) Hold borders tight with Zero Covid until the vax>(2) Unroll vax> (3) Open borders" is a sound one, but it does depend on the second and third bits of the plan actually happening...

As I understand the state borders in Australia are already open. The question for most Ozzies is not so much "are the borders open?" but "Is the government still committed to zero COVID?"

Because you can open the borders, but if everyone is painfully aware that a single case will cause the borders to instantly swing shut, a lot of people will be very nervous about traveling---they don't want to end up stuck on the wrong side of a border.

And as I mentioned upthread, this is also the problem with travel bubbles/air bridges and is the reason why they will probably not be a very satisfactory solution for long. As long as citizens are aware that their countries remain committed to Zero COVID and are prepared to abandon stranded citizens, they will be reluctant to travel unless pressed by dire need. I sure as heck would not be risking an air bubble holiday if I were Australian etc.

What is Australia planning to do about international sports events and international students? And working holiday people?

International sports events will happen. ( and have already happened)

There has been plans by some states to bring back international students but it keeps not happening.

Working holiday visas probably won’t be granted, however they may grant very restrictive visas to enable fruit pickers to come.

I would be wary about travelling, but when borders have closed previously, SA have still let you travel back in as long as you live there and a 2 week isolation wouldn’t bother me too much.

[quote worriedatthemoment]@Tealightsandd how could we achieve it we are not one single Island or do N Ireland not count? Also we rely heavily on imports from Europe than come by road and rail
We are not in anyway the same as australia or Nz how can people still be saying this really can you not see the huge difference [/quote]
Australia and New Zealand aren't lone outliers. East Asian and many African countries did the same. NYC did it too for a a while. Lots of them have land borders and they all continued to import food and medicine.

Widespread and frequent international travel has only been a thing in the last 50 years. International trade has been going on for centuries. One is much more essential than the other.

Reducing travel is something we're all (worldwide) going to have to look at in the future. That is if we're serious about dealing with climate change. Of course we could choose to bury our heads in the sand about that too.

Nearly everyone I know in Australia is both grateful for how the pandemic has been dealt with so far, whilst also hoping to start travelling again soon. We can hold both thoughts simultaneously.
Personally this has made me plan to travel everywhere as soon as we can! Having it taken away has made me appreciate it and I won’t be putting travel off again.

@hodgebit

That's around 13% of the people you know. If that is typical of everybody who has had the AZ vaccine in the UK there should be well over 3 million people with similar problems. .If that is the case, I'm surprised that we haven't heard more about it.

If 13% of those receiving AZ vaccine ended up in hospital as a result, we'd have well of 1 million hospitalisations (though we wouldn't as we don't have anything close to 1 million spare beds so we'd have 100,000s of sick people languishing at home. That's clearly a bullshit statistic of the highest order!

I agree

@MoppaSprings

International sports events will happen. ( and have already happened)

There has been plans by some states to bring back international students but it keeps not happening.

Working holiday visas probably won’t be granted, however they may grant very restrictive visas to enable fruit pickers to come.

I would be wary about travelling, but when borders have closed previously, SA have still let you travel back in as long as you live there and a 2 week isolation wouldn’t bother me too much.

Moppa what are the universities like? My degree was half SE Asian students (Melb Uni economics / arts). Are they not there atm?

This about sums it up:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/14/how-good-are-vaccines-not-as-good-as-press-conferences-but-even-so?utm_term=fca53b0d7e23e4cc338c7b5577abdb12&utm_campaign=FirstDogOnTheMoon&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=firstdog_email

Australia and those that have been vaccinated is on the news ... wish those living abroad and that want to see their families would be able to do the same.
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/100073168

@MarshaBradyo

There are still around 30% of international students outside of Aus doing online learning. www.studyinternational.com/news/return-to-australia-april/

www.google.com.au/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/the-government-keeps-shelving-plans-to-bring-international-students-back-to-australia-it-owes-them-an-explanation-158778

@MarshaBradyo yes my kids are 4&2. Not really of an age where you can easily explain to them that they have to be shut up in a hotel room with no natural light or air for 2 weeks straight. (Especially if we went back at Christmas - it seems particularly cruel to have them looking at sunny skies out the window.)

I think I will go. It is sounding like this will take a long time to unfold in terms of allowing families to quarantine at home / shorten the quarantine etc. Plus of course if caps continue then it will continue to be £7-8k per biz class seat which is a kick in the teeth if you have to buy 4 of them! I don’t know how much longer my dad in particular will be around - his dad died in his 50s, his mum in her 70s - so he’s already longer lived than both his parents. It’ll cost me a bomb but probably worth it.

[quote flyornofly]@MarshaBradyo yes my kids are 4&2. Not really of an age where you can easily explain to them that they have to be shut up in a hotel room with no natural light or air for 2 weeks straight. (Especially if we went back at Christmas - it seems particularly cruel to have them looking at sunny skies out the window.)

I think I will go. It is sounding like this will take a long time to unfold in terms of allowing families to quarantine at home / shorten the quarantine etc. Plus of course if caps continue then it will continue to be £7-8k per biz class seat which is a kick in the teeth if you have to buy 4 of them! I don’t know how much longer my dad in particular will be around - his dad died in his 50s, his mum in her 70s - so he’s already longer lived than both his parents. It’ll cost me a bomb but probably worth it.[/quote]
Good luck in getting out there fly - I too would try and find a way to travel with elderly parents.

DS is in Sydney - obviously haven't seen him since Christmas 2019 - four flights cancelled, and expecting the same for our trip out there in November, and his Christmas return. What's great is that he is safe and living life, so I don't have to worry about him. He was best man at his friend's wedding recently - the groom's family couldn't attend.
Sad, but lots of people are living with similar. Would love a hug from him though!

@ajandjjmum hug for you - it must be so hard to not be able to see your son

I think maybe the most we can hope for in the next 12 month is that Singapore opens as a travel bubble in both directions (ie from U.K. and Aus). And I don’t think it’ll last long so would be getting there pronto for a family reunion!

And I don’t think it’ll last long so would be getting there pronto for a family reunion!

This the problem. You need to jump as soon as an opening appears and get there (and back) before the doors slam shut again.

I'm afraid I've given up. I'm going to wait until it's a bit more settled.

@ajandjjmum I really feel for you. I live in a different state of Australia from my family and went 14 months without seeing my mum. She finally got over here when my baby was 20 months old. My Dad and brother haven't been able to visit yet and I haven't wanted to risk travelling to see them in case I end up having to quarantine with 3 young children. It's a very sad and frustrating situation to be in. But at the same time, I am so grateful that we haven't had to deal with the deaths and illness that people in many other countries have.

[quote flyornofly]@MarshaBradyo yes my kids are 4&2. Not really of an age where you can easily explain to them that they have to be shut up in a hotel room with no natural light or air for 2 weeks straight. (Especially if we went back at Christmas - it seems particularly cruel to have them looking at sunny skies out the window.)

I think I will go. It is sounding like this will take a long time to unfold in terms of allowing families to quarantine at home / shorten the quarantine etc. Plus of course if caps continue then it will continue to be £7-8k per biz class seat which is a kick in the teeth if you have to buy 4 of them! I don’t know how much longer my dad in particular will be around - his dad died in his 50s, his mum in her 70s - so he’s already longer lived than both his parents. It’ll cost me a bomb but probably worth it.[/quote]
I don’t blame you re dc. I wouldn’t do it to 3.5 year old dd, too hard to be stuck in for so long.

It’s very expensive but at least it won’t be too hard to work once there. Best of luck hope you make it. Let us know how it goes!

[quote Cowgran]@ajandjjmum I really feel for you. I live in a different state of Australia from my family and went 14 months without seeing my mum. She finally got over here when my baby was 20 months old. My Dad and brother haven't been able to visit yet and I haven't wanted to risk travelling to see them in case I end up having to quarantine with 3 young children. It's a very sad and frustrating situation to be in. But at the same time, I am so grateful that we haven't had to deal with the deaths and illness that people in many other countries have. [/quote]
That should say 10 months old.

I just read that Australian under 50s are allowed to opt in to getting the AZ vaccine as long as they sign a consent form - anyone know if this is true? Seems like a sensible plan if so.

Reading these threads and seeing the widespread understanding of the value in reuniting families abroad, do people think Australia (and other countries) should set up a fund/welfare grant for the many people too poor to afford the travel? That's been a problem long before the pandemic.

I agree psychomath

Also the risk benefit balance is different for Australia than the UK, but these brain clots are 8 times more likely from covid itself than from vaccines.

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-risk-of-blood-clot-after-coronavirus-is-eight-times-higher-than-after-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-study-12276088

@Tealightsandd

Reading these threads and seeing the widespread understanding of the value in reuniting families abroad, do people think Australia (and other countries) should set up a fund/welfare grant for the many people too poor to afford the travel? That's been a problem long before the pandemic.

Where there's unforeseen reasons why doing so would be much more expensive than it was when they moved, I think that would be a good thing to do, at least for countries that can afford it. In normal circumstances though it's presumably something that people factor into their decision making when choosing to emigrate, so I don't think it should be the state's responsibility. It might be a nice idea for a charitable organisation (if one doesn't already exist).

I'd never thought of it before. It's this thread and some others that got me thinking.

I think it would be a nice thing to do. I'm in a minority in that I want to see reduced international travel full stop ongoing. I'm concerned about climate change. However, reduced isn't the same as none.

I think it would be nice if every wealthy country established some kind of welfare fund. Something to help people in difficult financial circumstances visit their close family abroad.

@Kokeshi123

As I understand the state borders in Australia are already open. The question for most Ozzies is not so much "are the borders open?" but "Is the government still committed to zero COVID?"

Because you can open the borders, but if everyone is painfully aware that a single case will cause the borders to instantly swing shut, a lot of people will be very nervous about traveling---they don't want to end up stuck on the wrong side of a border.

And as I mentioned upthread, this is also the problem with travel bubbles/air bridges and is the reason why they will probably not be a very satisfactory solution for long. As long as citizens are aware that their countries remain committed to Zero COVID and are prepared to abandon stranded citizens, they will be reluctant to travel unless pressed by dire need. I sure as heck would not be risking an air bubble holiday if I were Australian etc.

What is Australia planning to do about international sports events and international students? And working holiday people?

Zero Covid should only be used while there’s no vaccine. Now there are vaccines are available the Australian people need to be told the plan. Everyone will be offered vaccines. Once vaccines have been rolled out international borders will be opened, possibly to only some countries to start with. Anyone who refuses a vaccine does so at their own risk and the country can’t stay shut off from the rest of the world indefinitely to protect them.

States will need to stop reporting case numbers. We don’t get flu or heart disease or cancer numbers reported every day.

Air travel bubbles are not a long term solution really. Say there is one between NZ and Singapore but Singapore now want to open to the U.K. ( or anywhere), but this has an impact in NZ who are now also by default in a travel bubble with the U.K. they have not agreed to. So what does Singapore do?
As a country I’d be wary about entering into travel bubbles with zero Covid countries in case that locked my country in too.
It’s politically fraught!
I can see one working between Australian and NZ well as they probably value their relationship with each other over another one elsewhere or with the any other country/ rest of the world (and they are both pursuing a zero Covid strategy)

Totally agree with this. Because my first thought is “oooo, I could get my parents (who I haven’t seen now since Dec 2019) to come to Singapore and I could also go to Singapore and we can meet there!”
I can’t be the only person thinking of creative ways to see family given that we have been separated for so long.

I can’t be the only person thinking of creative ways to see family given that we have been separated for so long.

My mum and I are mapping out all the possibilities!

She has gone from ‘ooh, I’m not sure how I’ll feel about flights after all this’ at the beginning of the pandemic to ‘fuck this shit, I’m on the first flight to see my grandkids wherever we can get to if I can quarantine at home afterwards.’