Australia says no to AZ and J&J vaccines--vax rollout likely to be delayed by months

[Kokeshi123]

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/13/australia-wont-buy-johnson-johnsons-one-dose-covid-vaccine-due-to-astrazeneca-similarities

I know quite a lot of Ozzies who are completely stranded outside their country due to the fact that they cannot keep small children within a hotel room for two weeks and pay a fortune for the priviledge. As it is, it's looking like Oz will not be removing its quarantine requirements until well into 2022 at the earliest.

I mean, I do think that a basic strategy of "(1) Hold borders tight with Zero Covid until the vax>(2) Unroll vax> (3) Open borders" is a sound one, but it does depend on the second and third bits of the plan actually happening...

Maybe they won't open up widely for some years. So what? It would certainly be a plus for tackling climate change. Shit for those wanting to travel abroad but they're a minority. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority were quite content to remain restricted - with links to New Zealand and perhaps Singapore and a few selected others only. Trade obviously continuing as normal (as it has done throughout).

Thanks spottygymbag.

Tealights surely there's a middle ground there though, i.e. if the issue is too few quarantine spaces and flights, the government could organise charter flights and build more holding facilities so people could get back in without endangering existing residents. Maybe some compromise system where the government pays the hotel cost for children under 18 and adults fund it themselves. It's not like the only two options are not helping any of their own citizens get back vs open borders and a free for all.

Shit for those wanting to travel abroad but they're a minority.

A bit more than shit for those with family abroad that they’ll never see again as a result of this, but hey ho.

@Tealightsandd

Maybe they won't open up widely for some years. So what? It would certainly be a plus for tackling climate change. Shit for those wanting to travel abroad but they're a minority. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority were quite content to remain restricted - with links to New Zealand and perhaps Singapore and a few selected others only. Trade obviously continuing as normal (as it has done throughout).

Yes I can see if it doesn’t impact you personally you can say so what.

It personally affects me and others so we are discussing it.

Plus the whole zero Covid in the U.K. argument has been on so many threads. It won’t happen.

We'll have to agree to disagree. It's perfectly realistic to implement border restriction and quarantine anywhere in the world, but particularly easy for islands with no land borders.

We, in the UK, absolutely did not have to do it the way we did. We did not have to have completely wide open borders with no quarantine. Definitely if anyone's concerned about climate change, then we all - world over - need to get used to reduced globalisation and revised expectations over unlimited travel.

Drastic change for some maybe but then so is long lockdown.

It was always going to be a drastic change. The choice was:

A) closed borders or

B) long repeated lockdowns AND many deaths, ruined health, and wrecked businesses

Entirely within our control which choice to go for.

@TheKeatingFive

Shit for those wanting to travel abroad but they're a minority.

A bit more than shit for those with family abroad that they’ll never see again as a result of this, but hey ho.

So prioritise the minority over the majority?

It will be really interesting to see what happens to emigration, Keating. People emigrating to Australia now are presumably not doing so in the belief that there will always be unrestricted travel to see relations in the future. Because even if/when it's reinstated, it seems at least plausible that if there's another virus the restrictions will be back.

In the 1960s people on the £10 boats presumably did so in the knowledge that they might rarely see their families again (expense). They still went though.

Over to Aus and N/Z mners: is there any concern about the impact on emigration to Aus/N/Z, or is that not really regarded as an economic necessity/benefit to society?

So prioritise the minority over the majority?

Personally I’d be pushing on with the vaccine programme so you have more choices.

It would affect me. As I've said, I have family in Australia.

And yes I know it won't happen in the UK. Because for a whole year now instead of doing something to make it happen, people keep repeating a mantra of it won't happen. So it doesn't.

@Tealightsandd

We'll have to agree to disagree. It's perfectly realistic to implement border restriction and quarantine anywhere in the world, but particularly easy for islands with no land borders.

We, in the UK, absolutely did not have to do it the way we did. We did not have to have completely wide open borders with no quarantine. Definitely if anyone's concerned about climate change, then we all - world over - need to get used to reduced globalisation and revised expectations over unlimited travel.

Drastic change for some maybe but then so is long lockdown.

It was always going to be a drastic change. The choice was:

A) closed borders or

B) long repeated lockdowns AND many deaths, ruined health, and wrecked businesses

Entirely within our control which choice to go for.

There’s no point in looking backwards what can you do?

Going forwards I don’t really care about travel over next few months either way. Maybe if someone outlined figures of either option it could be weighed up.

But if people think the end of first vaccination programme means a country is guaranteed not to feel ramifications of new variants - well it won’t be. So then you have to consider how long to have border restrictions?

"We, in the UK, absolutely did not have to do it the way we did. We did not have to have completely wide open borders with no quarantine."

What would we have done about the Ireland/NI border? I know pp say we could have had joint controls with Ireland - but was Ireland likely to be prepared in Jan/Feb 20 to close borders to EU, jointly with UK? Just after Brexit? (I know I've asked this before on this or another thread. Maybe Ireland mners can comment on whether this was a realistic possibility!) Thinking back to the response when US/DT closed borders to EU - in Feb 20 - would Ireland have done this?

@Tealightsandd

We'll have to agree to disagree. It's perfectly realistic to implement border restriction and quarantine anywhere in the world, but particularly easy for islands with no land borders.

We, in the UK, absolutely did not have to do it the way we did. We did not have to have completely wide open borders with no quarantine. Definitely if anyone's concerned about climate change, then we all - world over - need to get used to reduced globalisation and revised expectations over unlimited travel.

Drastic change for some maybe but then so is long lockdown.

It was always going to be a drastic change. The choice was:

A) closed borders or

B) long repeated lockdowns AND many deaths, ruined health, and wrecked businesses

Entirely within our control which choice to go for.

The UK is not an island without a land border, N.I shares a border with the republic and therefore the entire EU. We also get the majority of our food imported by lorry, which neccessatates the movement of large numbers of people.

@Tealightsandd

It would affect me. As I've said, I have family in Australia.

And yes I know it won't happen in the UK. Because for a whole year now instead of doing something to make it happen, people keep repeating a mantra of it won't happen. So it doesn't.

It’s not down to what people say.

Well up to you how you feel about not seeing family. Is it your parents?

Years is no small thing here.

but was Ireland likely to be prepared in Jan/Feb 20 to close borders to EU, jointly with UK? Just after Brexit?

Speaking as an Irish MNer, absolutely not at that point.

There would be a lot more openness to it now, but less pressing for the U.K. because of vaccination rates.

Youhavetoquitwhileyoureahead
I've heard that immigration including from the UK is increasingly unpopular in both Australia and New Zealand. With house prices rising, unemployment issues and benefits being cut, less affluent people are beginning to resent it. I know it's become harder to get a visa in recent years (before the pandemic).

Knowing that is why I posted earlier, about how I wouldn't be surprised if the majority were quite content to keep borders closed for a couple of years. I'm not saying that's ok for people with family abroad. Of course it's going to be shit, but I'm just being realistic.

We've got family friends who emigrated on the £10 Pom scheme. Also know someone who's Australian but settled with her British husband in the UK. They're resigned to never seeing their families again. Not because of the pandemic but because travel is no longer an option due to age and health. It's sad but it's choices that were made knowing what would happen at some point. They stay in touch through video calls.

With the borders. Where's there's a will, there's a way. Especially during a pandemic.

The immediate concern is the lack of fruit pickers.

They have actually allowed people to come in( and isolate for 14 days) to get people to do it.

Visas are still being granted here aswell( not sure of the numbers).

@Tealightsandd

You seem to have a lot of opinions on how Australia have done everything right, but a lot of your posts have been filled with incorrect information and assumptions.

I’m loving here. I understand and agree with a lot of decisions made, I assumed they would be short term restrictions but because of how well Australia has contained the virus no one seems in a rush to change anything. Not knowing if this will be it for another 3 years, or 10 years makes me feel anxious.

Now I could leave Australia but I still need permission, which is only granted for funerals, dying relatives, tennis players. Or if you don’t intend to return. You won’t be permitted to leave for weddings or even to just visit family (unless they are dying in hospital). If you are permitted to leave you may not be able to get a flight or quarantine place. You may think you are lucky to have this only to have your flight cancelled at the last minute.
Your earlier assumption that had the Uk managed to contain covid would have less to easy travel between the uk and Aus is frankly ridiculous.

As I’ve said I am thankful to be here and to have lived a normal life the past year, I am not stupid enough to think they can do anything other than gradually open up at a slow pace, but the longer it takes to get vaccines the longer it’s going to take to open up.

no one seems in a rush to change anything
Well clearly the majority are, like I say, happy with how things have gone.

The fruit pickers? Radical idea, but perhaps pay higher wages with better conditions - and then offer the jobs to unemployed Australians.

Where's there's a will, there's a way.

Well, no

How would you have gotten Ireland on board if they didn’t want to close borders with Europe?

A lot of the areas in need of fruit pickers are regional, so several hours away from the metropolitan areas.

If they up the wages then they drive the price of fruit up. They relied heavily on backpackers on a working holiday visa.

The government and health departments don’t seem in any rush to open not from what I can see as someone who lives here.

You are viewing it as some sort of utopia.

Also wages in Australia are quite fair. More Australians would do it if they didn’t need to move to do it

@Tealightsandd you seem very invested in this for a poster who has no connection to australia other than a “family friend” and someone you know in the U.K. who married an Australian. Perhaps you could pipe down and let actual Australians on both sides of the border discuss how they feel about it rather than trying to turn this into an assessment of how the two countries have done?

There is plenty that can be done now. Why is quarantine still so restricted? Why can’t vaccinated people do home quarantine? I would be happy to rent a house for 2 weeks and quarantine with my family. Why is the government doing nothing about this if they think borders will have to stay shut for years?

Why are they being so so shit with vaccine rollout? Why shouldn’t Australians who have overseas family be allowed to leave?

These are serious questions that can’t be dismissed with WELL ITS BETTER THAN 150,000 DEAD IN BRITAIN.

I am so incredibly glad we didn't go the Australia route, as I think longer term we'll be getting back to normal with a vaccinated or otherwise immune population while they will be locked off from the world.

Absolutely awful for immigrants living there that face years of separation from family and the possibility of never seeing elderly parents alive again.

I think if we did what Oz did here in the UK, people would be screaming human rights violations... keeping families apart, shutting the borders in such a strict way.
But then it’s worked hasn’t it?! But it wouldn’t have worked in a socialist, liberal democracy. There would be riots.

You've misunderstood what I said earlier too. I meant, had everywhere in the world closed their borders with short-term lockdown when Australia did it, then of course by now everywhere could be open to everywhere, including UK to Aus. Because the pandemic would've been over.

I definitely know it was unrealistic, but it doesn't make it not true. It was perfectly possible to do, but unrealistic only because too many places operate on short term policies and are led by leaders (hello, Boris) too scared to do the right thing because it's initially unpopular.

Nowhere's perfect of course not, but when it comes to the pandemic it's screamingly obvious who did the right thing and who didn't.

Even now the UK has failed to learn from repeated mistakes. The government has allowed the possibly more vaccine resistant South African strain in and is letting it spread through London (and then no doubt, beyond).

Even at this stage, one year on, we could've learnt from Australia. Belated border control and real quarantine would've stopped this strain talking hold. Labour know this, which is why they've been calling for it.