Under 40s may also be advised to avoid AZ

[MimiPigeon]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/04/08/vaccines-advice-could-still-change-30s-jcvi-suggests/

Sorry I don’t have a share token. But it looks like JCVI is suggesting that people in their 30s may also be advised not to take AZ. This could be a game changer for 30 somethings who are still trying to make a decision about whether to get vaccinated in the near future.

I am early 30s, really keen to be vaccinated but had a serious clot following birth so am definitely weary of having the az. It would be nice to have the option to choose to be honest as I'm not sure I would have the az, I know it's unlikely but am scared of going through something like that again.

There’s nothing great about it @MarshaBradyo but I think chaosrabbitland quite accurately identified one of the reasons the current tone of discussion around vaccines is so aggressive. The average person is generally swept up in it rather than consciously ‘picking a side’ I think.

I’m clearly no expert but I do think the psychology of this pandemic, particularly the impact of the internet, is really interesting.

It is @MarshaBradyo, I absolutely believe in the right to choose whether to accept a vaccination or not but some people are not balancing risks very well at all.

I've gone down a rabbit hole of googling various medical procedures I've had to see what my risks for those were 😂 I had elective c-sections with my children and remember the leaflet that was given to me stating my risk of death etc, pretty sure that was higher than the chance of a clot from the AZ vaccine but I really wasn't worried for a second that I was going to die during the sections. Trying to find up to date figures but too lazy to keep looking.

Realised that at times throughout the pandemic that I've been drinking way more than the recommended amount of alcohol units in a week- I googled the risks of that which made me glad I've cut down a lot!

I've chosen so many things that are probably riskier. What about the risk of blood poisoning leading to sepsis from a tattoo? I never even thought about it when getting them done!

Yeah, but not everyone needs to be vaccinated to get back to normal. The lockdowns were to prevent the NHS being overwhelmed by hospitalised covid patients. We’ve now vaccinated the groups most likely to be hospitalised and we’re seeing a break in the link between number of cases and hospitalisations/deaths. Vaccinating all these low risk people isn’t going to have anywhere near as much of an impact on hospitalisations. We’re already nearing >70% immunity in the U.K. between vaccination and immunity after infection. This idea that younger people deciding not to be vaccinated is going to send us back into lockdown just isn’t true.

@MarshaBradyo haven’t heard anything about the second dose causing it. But the data doesn’t seem reliable at the moment, it’s changing fast.

I had pretty awful side effects from the first jab, the headache was awful. I’d be worried about clots if that happened again, at the time I was unaware of any risk.

Any idea when that will be?
People aged 50+ are currently being vaccinated and they’ve done most of this group. That leaves 40s, 30s and 20s to be jabbed by the end of July.

So assuming it takes approx one month for each group, that means 40s will be jabbed from mid April to mid May, 30s will be jabbed from mid May to mid June, and 20s will be jabbed from mid June to mid July.

So around mid May the government will need to make a decision about whether to give 30s AZ or offer them an alternative. That’s why my 30 something friends are considering cancelling their (ahead of schedule) AZ jabs now and waiting a month to see if government policy changes by the time their group is officially called for vaccination.

I am finding all the AZ negative obsession quite wearing. There was even a thread where someone wanted to take the completely unknown risk of having two different vaccines (I think this is probably fine TBH but there is no evidence yet that it is safe) rather than the known about as miniscule and possibly not even causal risk of blood clots with the AZ vaccine

Who the hell chooses a completely unknown quantity against something that has been show to be safe in multiple millions of cases. Only an idiot really.

I am trying to ignore most of these threads as they are bad for my blood pressure but just posting two things for a bit of context and to put things in perspective:

Risk of death 74% higher when COVID-19 patients develop blood clots -
www.cardiovascularbusiness.com/topics/covid-19/risk-death-74-higher-covid-19-patients-blood-clots

Also Coronavirus latest: European regulator investigates potential link between Johnson & Johnson vaccine and blood clots
latest: European regulator investigates potential link between Johnson & Johnson vaccine and blood clots

I really thing that history will show that AZ is no more risky than any of the other vaccines - only my view of course but we shall see. Until then I can only hope and pray that I am allowed to take my second AZ vaccine which is due in June and that the government does not change policy on their vaccination programmes.

Also any young women currently taking the pill who don't want the vaccine might want to consider the fact that risks of blood clots while taking the pill which are very small but are still 1 in 1000 each year (yes I know it not the incredibly rare one being discussed but noethe less we are comparing 1 in 1000 with 79 in 30million)

There are around 20 million people left to vaccinate.... thats a possible 80 blood clot deaths...

How has this got so out of hand when nearly 2000 a day were dying of covin in January and yet were talking about potential 80 more deaths in total from clotting (as tragic as that would be for those families)

People need to seriously get a grip 1 in 250,000 chance of dying from clotting or 1 in 1000 chance of dying from covid....

There is no argument here.

@Cornettoninja

There’s nothing great about it *@MarshaBradyo* but I think chaosrabbitland quite accurately identified one of the reasons the current tone of discussion around vaccines is so aggressive. The average person is generally swept up in it rather than consciously ‘picking a side’ I think.

I’m clearly no expert but I do think the psychology of this pandemic, particularly the impact of the internet, is really interesting.

I agree the psychology is interesting too but so many threads on the same issue - usually second dose people get wearing so people are probably just fed up with responding to same thing.

I think some threads have shown lots of empathy but sometimes people run out. Especially when some posters seem more intent on undermining programme and that in itself is very annoying.

A lot of focus on for example what other countries are deciding, completely forgetting that France for example is in a much worse place to us with numbers - in part due to vaccine decisions.

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

It is *@MarshaBradyo*, I absolutely believe in the right to choose whether to accept a vaccination or not but some people are not balancing risks very well at all.

I've gone down a rabbit hole of googling various medical procedures I've had to see what my risks for those were 😂 I had elective c-sections with my children and remember the leaflet that was given to me stating my risk of death etc, pretty sure that was higher than the chance of a clot from the AZ vaccine but I really wasn't worried for a second that I was going to die during the sections. Trying to find up to date figures but too lazy to keep looking.

Realised that at times throughout the pandemic that I've been drinking way more than the recommended amount of alcohol units in a week- I googled the risks of that which made me glad I've cut down a lot!

I've chosen so many things that are probably riskier. What about the risk of blood poisoning leading to sepsis from a tattoo? I never even thought about it when getting them done!

Yes, but your risk of not having, eg an emergency c-section, were much higher than having it. In younger/healthy adults the risk of covid is very small anyway. It was literally a life/death situation. For people who have already had covid and recovered with no ill effects, they are likely to already have immunity and their risk-benefit ratio is very different to someone in a high risk group with underlying conditions.

The c-section was a life death situation, not covid. Sorry, sentence went in the wrong place. Stupid phone!

I'm 36, overweight female and have had my first AZ jab back in January and am booked to have my second jab a week today. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't concerned about the risks of the second vaccination, as although I do believe all the issues have been with first jabs so far, v few second AZ have been given, and even fewer to under 40s. However I will be going to my second. I had no headache at all with my first that I can remember. The rest of me ached like I'd been hit by a bus. The vaccination has been shown to reduce the risk of severe illness, and I am hoping that this also includes a reduction in the risk of long covid as it is long covid that really worries me. I lead an active life, am self employed and enjoy travel. If I develop long covid, I can't work for months, travel won't be enjoyable without long walks to explore a new area and having suffered from post viral fatigue 20 years ago, I can't be doing with sleeping for 20 hours a day again. So, I've balanced the risks for me, and will be having my second jab. I'm aware of the signs and symptoms of the rare blood clots and will seek immediate medical attention if I need to and push for the blood tests that can diagnose the condition while it is still treatable. As far as I am aware having read the guidelines for diagnosis and treatment, if it is recognised early (and a blood test does show it fairly early) it can be managed and the very low risk of it happening to me is something that I can live with.

@bumbleymummy my c-sections weren't life or death- they were elective and not due to a physical medical reason- I chose to have them. So I did choose the c-section and the risks that came with it- due to the benefit for me personally.

The risk of COVID may be small for young adults but it still seems that the risk is greater than the risk of the vaccine. With the added benefit of protecting the people around them too.

@bumbleymummy belt and braces isn’t it. Just because

@bumblingbovine49 There are already ongoing trials for confining vaccines and France and Germany are suggesting a different second jab for younger people who have had the first AZ.

I'm 42, if they change the age range to under 40s, i'll take my risk and won't get AZ. I already have long covid and had covid twice, i'll take my chances as a twice survivor than risk a rare blood clot with AZ.

@littlepeas

Is it 1 in 10 of those hospitalised with covid. That would make a lot more sense.

1in 10 is of those seriously ill with Covid www.hriuk.org/health/your-health/lifestyle/people-with-coronavirus-are-at-risk-of-blood-clots-and-strokes

So it isn't fair to compare 1in 10 with the vaccine risk of blood clot for younger people , particularly when covid infections are low.

However if Covid infections are high and they are driven by the new variants, there will be many more young people in hospital very ill This is because the sheer numbers of infections mean more young people will get ill but also because some of the new variants are looking more and more like they do actually affect younger people more and make them more ill.

Given this, there is a good reason to refuse a vaccine as a younger person if infections are very low as the balance of risk is less clear (definitely under 30).

However if we are in a period of very high infections driven by the new more lethal variants then the comparative risk of vaccination against getting Covid even for young people flips in favour of them having the vaccine very quickly.

I am personally a bit worried abour getying the AZ jab as I'm 33 and have had previous low platelets. I would get the AZ jab if my GP says its ok but I'd be a lot more relaxed if I get Pfizer or Moderna!

@Cornettoninja

official cases. Many weren’t recorded due to no community testing in the early days and a high percentage of asymptomatic cases.

The ONS released figures for March and, As I already said, according to a UCL model over 70% of the U.K. are expected to have immunity by next week from either vaccination or after infection.

What one person deems an ‘acceptable risk’ may not be acceptable to someone else. Each to their own.

some of the new variants are looking more and more like they do actually affect younger people more and make them more ill

Do you have a link to studies on this @bumblingbovine49

@bumbleymummy fair enough.

I would make the point though that I have seen a lot of discussion about whether the estimated number of asymptomatic cases is right. That’s an unknown factor in all of this and has been for quite a while. There was a point that it was believed London was close to herd immunity when it clearly wasn’t. That’s just the nature of the beast though, asymptomatic infection is hard to quantify and provide evidence for. I don’t think it can be relied on if we’re talking about herd immunity in the same way vaccinations can.

Does anyone know if you’ve had a previous blot clot (in pregnancy) and low platelets (not in pregnancy but no treatment needed) does this make you at more risk of suffering other types of blot clots? I’m 39 and as soon as the low platelet issue started being talked about a couple of weeks ago I’ve been worried about the AZ jab.

More news against mixing vaccines as of now

he WHO reiterated Friday there was "no adequate data" on switching COVID-19 vaccines between doses, after France said under-55s who received an AstraZeneca first jab should get their second from a different vaccine.

The World Health Organization has called for studies on so-called mixing and matching between vaccines, but said there was no comprehensive data so far on which it could make any recommendations.

"There is not adequate data to be able to say whether this is something that could be done," she said.

"So they were recommending that at this stage, interchangeability of vaccines was not something that we could give a recommendation on.

medicalxpress.com/news/2021-04-covid-vaccines-doses.html

@bumbleymummy

some of the new variants are looking more and more like they do actually affect younger people more and make them more ill

Do you have a link to studies on this @bumblingbovine49

I was thinking specifically about Brazil. The research is not clear yet as to how much is about larger numbers of infections resulting in more young people in hospital and/or healthcare system failing etc but there are some signs that the variants there are more lethal as well as more infectious . If this is the case, it will by default affect younger people more, albeit still probably much less than older people

I don't have actual research links just news reports and I am not trying to catastrophise but if a variant becomes more lethal it is likely that younger people will be more affected. That does not mean younger people will be at high risk just at more risk than now.

The point I was trying to make is that the increase in risk of younger people getting ill in that scenario will mean that getting a vaccine with a minuscule risk of a blood clot makes sense, whereas to some in this country now now it may feel like it doesn't . Although to be fair the vaccine would need to actually work against the variant for that to be true.

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-26/younger-brazilians-are-dying-from-covid-in-an-alarming-new-shift

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covid-brazil-young-people-warning-b1823137.html

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covid-brazil-young-people-warning-b1823137.html

I'm 38 and definitely very pro-vax - have been eagerly waiting for my turn, especially as so many of my friends in their 30s and 40s have already had theirs.

I do have some concerns about the AZ jab though, based on the fact that if I lived elsewhere in the world the recommendation would be different. I'm actually originally from one of the countries only giving AZ to the older age groups now, and can't help thinking why should I trust the MHRA/JCVI more than the similar bodies in my native country?

Of course I understand the risk of these clots is tiny and it would be very, very likely I would be absolutely fine. I'm probably going to take the AZ jab as soon as offered.

It does feel like the 30s and 40s age groups in the UK are expected to accept the risk simply because that's the situation with vaccine supply here. It isn't purely a scientific/medical recommendation in that sense - it's not any safer to get the AZ jab here than it is in Finland, Canada or France. If there were millions of doses of Pfizer or Moderna ready and only a few doses of AZ, then I have no doubt the recommendation here would be different.

But it is what it is and at least we are lucky in the UK to have such a good vaccination programme. I wouldn't want to live in Brazil, Mexico or India right now...