EU threaten to cut off vaccine supply to the UK 3

[EasterIssland]

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4200959-EU-threaten-to-cut-off-vaccine-supply-to-the-UK-2?pg=1

That's one heck of a big shoe horn you are using there...

I’ve got a shoe horn that’s even bigger than that

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/13/eu-urgent-clarification-johnson-johnson-covid-vaccine-delay-europe

How on earth are poorer countries going to afford this? Especially now this is the main vaccine.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.cityam.com/pfizer-hikes-cost-of-covid-vaccine-for-eu-by-60-per-cent/amp/

I do think the EU have really pissed off private industry with recent antics.

Not saying Pfizer wouldn't have put their prices up but they were pretty outspoken about the madness of EU threatening export bans and what it would do to their supply chains. I should imagine it has also caused a lot of added expense and ball ache, at a time where all resources were necessarily directed at getting up to speed and increasing production, to have to jump through red tape and conform to a process of applying for permission to export anything and waiting on that administrative turnaround.

In normal times I'm not ideologically against governments placing restrictions and more governance for mega rich global corporations but now was not the time.

@TheHoneyBadger

Sterling is still strong ffs - you're just being silly now. And comparing the currency of a small island nation and that of a 27 country block is a bit daft. Though even when you do that it comes out favourably.

You're so determined to hate the UK that you'd actually deny that Sterling is a strong currency?

Steady on, its not what it was, its hardly the dollar, yen, swiss franc or euro & no i don't hate the UK, i just have a more realistic view and i'm not stuck in the days of empire.

Just look at the value of the £ against the euro in 1999 or what it used to trade against the $ ?

@TheHoneyBadger

UK refused to agree to cooperate on foreign policy during the talks last year

Good! Cosying up to Russia and China is not a 'foreign policy' I want to be wedded to.

Considering the amount of russian money pushed through London or the monies donated to the tory party you might want to reconsider?

The UKs relationship to China is to offer a small amount of criticism but trade is what really matters.

The point is, no one, least of all Putin or Xi will give a flying fuck what the UK says (look at HK or Iran) but they "might" care what the EU does, less so now we aren't in the bloc.

Did you see how they treated the EU delegates who visited them recently?

And yes I stand by saying we have a relatively strong currency - especially if you look at the context that I actually said it in jasjas which was in relation to smaller nations within EU and the relative issues of trying to come out of the EU and go it alone.

But you don't do context or following the content of discussion do you? I don't think saying that the UK has a relatively strong currency and economy is really being 'stuck in the empire'.

The empire is a pretty bad example by the way because it massively overstretched our resources in the end hence it's collapse, compounded by the resources needed to cope with a world war.

The Armada might be a better analogy - small nimble ships (via quickly converting merchant ships in response to threat) that could move fast and cope with changing weather as opposed to huge battleships that look strong on paper but are immobile and not good with change History teacher here.

Oh and needing to stop off in Holland to pick up vaccines troops

Armada? you mean foreign mercenaries and pirates/slavers? lol!

I see we dropped to relative now? i have never said sterling is a weak currency, its just not first division anymore.

The point is, the UK has been in economic decline since WW2, only halted when we joined the EEC/EU (why else do you think thatcher was so keen?) where we then enjoyed economic growth plus in science, tech, automotive, finance BUT then thanks to a few power hungry politicians & that moron Cameron, decided to leave and take our chances as if this was 1816.

Did you see how they treated the EU delegates who visited them recently?

As opposed to how China treated the UK when Williamson dared suggest the QE2 Air craft carrier will go the South China Sea? yep halted Hammond's trade visit or the way China has imposed sanctions on UK MPs for criticising China?

Lets face it, the UK ain't what it was, it needs friends and cooperation or the China's and Russians of this world will walk all over us all, EU inc.

Yes relative. Strong is a relative term - like most adjectives really. What would it mean if it wasn't relative?

It's like trying to take a photo of a slinky on the stairs.

OK anyways catching up.

Bit shocked by j&j news as figured Europe must have started rolling out janson but I think its based on 6 cases in the USA.
Does anyone know if vaccine producers In the states are immune from legal action like they are in the UK.
Also think within the EU they liable to being sued so I understand jansons pause in rolling out.
They don't want to be where az is now in 3months time basically a public relations disaster of individual nations going against the EMA and flip flopping over age suitability and damaged consumer confidence.
I mean it could be that or on deeper level not that they wish to admit this potentially supply / yeild issues which will anger EU.

But going back to previous point.
There seems to be no flexibility for nations who joined the eu procurement scheme to up and receive orders quickly..

Say for example republic of Ireland ordered predominantly az, j&j and Sanofi. They pause az and j and j Sanofi not even online they cant up their moderna or pfizer orders or they can hut they won't be delivered until the eu has received thier entire order of that brand.
I think the eu were pinning a lot of hopes on janson instead of az to learn that delayed or equally as risky will delay many member states vaccination programmes without janson and still no Sanofi or curevac I don't know how eu meet targets as limiting 2 different vaccines to older people who on theory should been vaccinated 1st most probably with pfizer won't help them complete.its not all about old and vulnerable its about herd immunity so large proportion each nation receiving vaccines .

@NewLevelsOfTiredness Macron may have been a lone voice but as each country had a veto, he had the power to block any deal, something which was apparently frustrating Merkel who was far more pragmatic. Towards the end of the negotiations it certainly sounded like it was he who was frustrating progress more than anyone else.

Yes 3. I thought about the concerns about 'supply' issues being badly reacted to. Again I wouldn't blame them.

And yes to the not being able to switch tac when you're not allowed to order anything that is part of the procurement plan. Nightmare.

@jasjas1973

I think the UK is not representative of most EU nations in that it does have that strong global finance position and a strong currency which possibly makes it more viable to go it alone than many of the EU nations would find it

Sterling has fallen in value against the euro since 1999, sterling is not what it was, previous to that, i recall a series of devaluations in the 60s and 70s (before EEC)

As far as i can see, per capita, we are around 23rd richest country in the world, not even top 10 in europe, in absolute terms, on par with France/Italy, way behind Germany.

But as i said earlier, together we are lot stronger than our individual parts... or rather we were.

Why are you measuring wealth "per capita"? Monaco, Liechtenstein, and Luxembourg are the top three countries in the world for GDP per capita but you can't seriously argue that they are major players on the "world stage".

Have a look at the list of countries by total GDP and see if they sound more like major powers than the three microstates above:

1. USA
2. China
3. Japan
4. Germany
5. UK

Ukraine and Russia issue is ramping up

Yes I think there’s going to be serious trouble there - though obviously I very much hope not.

So a shortage of vaccines, you can’t order vaccines for your own country if the EU already have a contract with that company. Will smaller countries still get a share or will France and Germany shout loudest and get a bigger share of the pot? We will see. No EU country should be ordering vaccines from Russia. Not while they’ threatening war with Ukraine. It’s a real mess, I am glad to be out of the EU on the vaccine front though.

Why are you measuring wealth "per capita"? Monaco, Liechtenstein, and Luxembourg are the top three countries in the world for GDP per capita but you can't seriously argue that they are major players on the "world stage"

err... because i didn't.

Per capita is a perfectly normal way of measuring a countries "wealth" or in the case of CV, its infection/death rates.

The UK has some appalling inequality, one (of many reasons) we suffered such a terrible death rate, the fact that 1% of the population have such huge wealth is of little consolation.

I thought JJ are having severe production issues too?

So, regardless of the AZ/JJ problems, we are back to a severe shortage of vaccine, regardless of what the EU rules on procurement are.

Not sure why anyone would want a large pharma company not to be held liable for issues with their product? sure perhaps limit that liability but none!?

Whilst it might seem a good thing to get production out quickly, it also allows corners to be cut.

www.politico.eu/article/jj-vaccine-suspension-in-us-causes-fears-its-the-next-astrazeneca/

@jasjas1973 this is why there is an urgency to get vaccines out quickly.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/14/a-tsunami-of-cases-desperation-as-covid-second-wave-batters-india

We can’t all return to normal until everyone is vaccinated. I thought as this virus mutates it would get weaker but I think the opposite is happening.

I thought as this virus mutates it would get weaker but I think the opposite is happening

Two factors in this

a) it has no particular need to produce less severe disease because it transmits before symptoms show (doesn't matter if the host dies if it's already moved on)
b) in a population where about half have been vaccinated, there is an environment which favours higher viral loads (and greater transmission) in the remaining vulnerable population - for example, one that makes younger people sicker becomes more successful. As could those which are more likely to escape the vaccine. This is why the scientists sometimes say this is still a risky phase, and who keeping transmission very low remains so very important

La stampa is reporting that the EU won't renew their contracts with AZ nor j&j and will focus on arnm vaccines( I also read that EU has got a new deal for 1800m of doses and that for these pfizer has increased 60% the price)

@SexTrainGlue that’s scary, i’m glad i’m in the UK and have been vaccinated and so have all adults in our family. I’m also glad we are very good at spotting variants as they occur.

[quote Baileysforchristmas]@jasjas1973 this is why there is an urgency to get vaccines out quickly.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/14/a-tsunami-of-cases-desperation-as-covid-second-wave-batters-india

We can’t all return to normal until everyone is vaccinated. I thought as this virus mutates it would get weaker but I think the opposite is happening.[/quote]
Yep which is why i have argued for the UK to allow vaccines to go to europe and beyond, when possible but certainly before we have vaccinated everyone.
But of course, who knows whether AZ/Pfizer will protect us from P1 etc what is happening in Brazil would indicate not.

Viruses can mutate into anything at all, so season flu mutated in H1N1 and killed 50 to 100m in 1918... then went back to its more seasonal variant.
This Covid19 version could mutate into something that is terrifying and possibly why China, with their history of research into corona viruses, decided to go for eradication, instead of the economy.

Something we may well have to do, opening up now is pure madness until we know what we are dealing with.