EU threaten to cut off vaccine supply to the UK 3

[EasterIssland]

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4200959-EU-threaten-to-cut-off-vaccine-supply-to-the-UK-2?pg=1

if I were in government I'd be hunting down refunds from the firms who sent useless goods from China and Turkey, but that's all

As i understand it, its not that they sent us below spec PPE, its that we asked for below spec PPE.
the infamous Turkish order was as per spec asked for.

But when firms in pest control or sweet makers come forward to supply PPE, you'd think basic checks would be made?
Or that spanish guy who was paid £21m and supplied nothing at all.

We did IT work for a major PPE supplier, they were not asked to source PPE for many weeks, despite being a european leader, they sent PPE to EU as did other trad PPE firms.

Agree the priority has to be supply over proceedure... so long as it wrks.....

I agree Mrex The PPE was a global issue, and one that needs to be followed up. I have a child with respiratory issues and could only get hold of an oxygen machine from China, it arrived and didn't work - in fact it was a dud, it had never worked. In the middle of a pandemic, I had to really wrestle for a refund (successfully eventually) Amazon were pretty aggrieved with some of the practices being deployed by some countries. There were some very unscrupulous people taking advantage of not just governments, but desperately ill normal consumers as well.

jas I hope the mutations don't become the next problem with the vaccines, for the sake of us all.

@jasjas1973 - the UK buys a fair amount of PPE through France usually. The French literally stopped lorries at the border and confiscated the masks. Why would you think the government should have bought more from firms sending goods up to that same border? It wasn't the fault of the companies, but if supplies wouldn't arrive there would be no point.

I've not seen evidence of the wrong spec being supplied to Turkey, please confirm your source for that. The only information seems to be that the gowns failed quality checks: www.ft.com/content/ea6dc9be-d25e-4223-8e80-7be7ede0da5e.

when firms in pest control or sweet makers come forward to supply PPE
Gin makers resolved the shortage of hand gel.
Masks were being made by car manufacturers.
You'd be surprised what was actually working.

At least some of the criticism on quality was unfounded though. I remember one load was panned because the gowns weren't double wrapped and sterile. Now some areas (ours included) don't need sterile gowns, and I remember thinking, "No! Don't bin them! Send them our way!"

I ended up phoning my vet who placed an order through her veterinary supplier for gowns - I paid her in cash and claimed it on expenses. So for the first few weeks we were treating patients wearing long sleeved gowns designed for treating colicky horses.

Strange times.

@MRex

when firms in pest control or sweet makers come forward to supply PPE Gin makers resolved the shortage of hand gel. Masks were being made by car manufacturers. You'd be surprised what was actually working.

Well, Gin is 40% alcohol! 68% needed to make an anti viral 'wash, so not difficult.

They didn't make medical grade ones.

Why would non PPE suppliers be able to get round export bans? and why were UK PPE suppliers exporting to EU when Govt didn't respond to request to supply.

PPE export bans? once again, seems the UK expects other countries to go without and see their healthcare workers die, in order to protect UK ones....

The UK didn't have PPE export bans, nor did the French until border guards stopped the shipment, of goods that had not been ordered by anyone in France that were the standard NHS supplies order. I don't think you've understood what happened.

"I don't think the UK should walk away from their 25 million tax payer funded investment, the Netherlands/EU should repay the UK."

Absolutely - otherwise its just piracy.

*Well, Gin is 40% alcohol! 68% needed to make an anti viral 'wash, so not difficult.

They didn't make medical grade ones*.

www.imperial.ac.uk/news/196716/sipsmith-help-imperial-supply-hand-sanitiser/

Well, Gin is 40% alcohol! 68% needed to make an anti viral 'wash, so not difficult

they wouldn’t have supplied their actual product just used their existing equipment to make the required one.

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

‘I think you're quite unusual in your support of the government there. Nobody could argue that the decision to hand the vaccine procurement to an expert who performed an excellent job was a good one. What are the others? ‘

I think you’re rather trivialising the scope and complexity of the vaccine rollout if you think the only decision that made it happen was appointing Kate Bingham.
There must have been a whole slew of good decisions behind the vaccine rollout from the willingness to support vaccine development financially to a huge degree from early on to putting the NHS who know what they are doing in charge rather than handing it to a private company as they did with testing and tracing.

The NHS is only a small part of the rollout though. It's just at the end of the line, the bit people see. Because it's gone well people applaud it, and rightly so.

However, in reality, the set up is exactly the same as T&T. Venture capiliast in charge, led by BEIS and NHS and supported by lots of private companies and consultancies. You know, the one's the everyone think are shit and overpaid. Without them, it wouldn't have happened.

[quote FourTeaFallOut]*Well, Gin is 40% alcohol! 68% needed to make an anti viral 'wash, so not difficult.

They didn't make medical grade ones*.

www.imperial.ac.uk/news/196716/sipsmith-help-imperial-supply-hand-sanitiser/[/quote]
Plus a raft of others. "Not medical grade" hand gels were also needed and used by care workers and GPs by the way.

We should be celebrating that they stepped up to help. "Not difficult" comes across as rude in the circumstances @jasjas1973.

Pandemics to me are two parts. Pre and post vaccine. Some Countries that did well part one have not been so good at part two and vice versa. Maybe there’s a link there.
Arguably getting part two right long term is actually more important and so betting the house on vaccines was the right thing to do.
The guardian et al, crying cronyism over the ppe and Kate Bingham too ( that the media itself was screaming for more ppe at the time, I recall loads of interviews on the today show with various people saying they could get ppe and why hadn’t the government contacted them) we had to buy what we could where we could at the time. Macron prevented a large delivery of nhs masks leaving France!
The Guardian had a very rude article on Kate Bingham too trying to upset or disrupt what her team were doing I presume, why they would want to do that I have no idea. I’ll remember there position on that.
“Cronyism” Can obviously be a useful thing, orherwise known as using your networks and contacts and good people you know and trust that can do helpful things.
I work in a large London hospital trust and we never ran out of ppe but the hysterical media reports were more worrying to us. Personally I’m glad the government tried to get ppe from whatever source they could, if some call it “cronyism “ I couldn’t care less, I presume those people don’t work in a hospital hearing media reports that ppe was running out.

I also agree that the NHS role is actually just the end of the whole vaccine plan, in a way the easy bit although still a lot of work but it’s the NHS that has meant the whole thing has worked so well.
People trust the NHS, they trust their local gp’s, pharmacists. Etc.
So the NHS “branding” has played an essential role in the whole roll out and getting jabs in arms which is ultimately the point of the whole exercise.
I think it’s all an example of great practice from conception to execution actually, the logistics too including the army.

‘However, in reality, the set up is exactly the same as T&T. Venture capiliast in charge, led by BEIS and NHS and supported by lots of private companies and consultancies. You know, the one's the everyone think are shit and overpaid. Without them, it wouldn't have happened.‘

Fair point, BigWoollyJumpers.
Either way they have clearly got the right people doing the right things at every level, not just (the excellent) Kate Bingham.

Might be a bit of a tangent!? But I wonder if our experience here in the U.K. of other countries blocking ppe meant for us, receiving sub standard products etc was in the end a good learning exercise for the government and ultimately worked in our favour with regards ensuring our supply of vaccines?
Also the important of making our own ppe.
Maybe from this thoroughly negative experience, positive things can be taken ( well that and the film Contaigion! )
So if Macron hadn’t blocked our bought and paid for masks coming to the U.K. we’d never have expected this could happen and this experience made us realise vaccine blocks could also be a thing, (as it has proved)

Could be @sashagabadon. You could also say parts of the early response may have been distracted due to setting up the vaccine programme.

I didn't know that France seized the PPE at the border last spring, wow, that is really bad!! We were in the eye of the storm. France's actions over the PPE, the vaccines, the hostility in the seas around here razing the scallops to the ground around Jersey, blocking food and medicine lorries and transportation over christmas, all of this FEELS very hostile.

I no longer consider them friend or allies if I am honest. It goes beyond grabbing and desperation in my view - and well into the area of piracy and theft.

I don't think anyone can be under any illusions anymore after this. Covid has ripped off the mask of some nations, and shown the ugly side of their character and values.

@LimitIsUp

"I don't think the UK should walk away from their 25 million tax payer funded investment, the Netherlands/EU should repay the UK."

Absolutely - otherwise its just piracy.

The issue of state investment is a tricky one as appears be separate even prior to contract signing. The germans gave some tax payer money to pfizer and curevac. I assume French did Sanofi. Americans with their vaccines. I think the eu may have made some investment in az. Is the 21 to 25million quoted overall uk investment in az or is it purely relate to the leiden halix site in the Netherlands. Its seems bonkers to invest that much then not be allowed any access to vaccines produced there. The uk government been very quiet and I doubt we'll I hope not we won't write off that money and say oh well we tried. Maybe uk are dealing with it privately with lawyers and az. Doesn't solve the fact UK has current shortfall in vaccine supply in April. As the EU made it clear that joint statement they produced last week was crap they have no interest negotiating. But surely in order to seize and use the vaccines at halix they have to use article 122 as export ban in itself just means they sit in a warehouse.. That the EU is not making very clear how legally and what mechanisms they using. What legal mechanism and recourse legally and financially do the UK have? We know America has an defence act which is technically a export ban Its like the 250k missing az from Australia order in Italy . Where did it go? Did it get redistribute in Europe and used? Even if its specifically targeted at az due to contract dispute between az and eu and not applied to other vaccines its still state seizing private goods.

www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1411682/eu-article-122-what-is-article-122-meaning-uk-vaccine-shortage-row-exports-EVG

www.politico.eu/article/why-the-uk-doesnt-need-a-coronavirus-vaccine-export-ban/

Haven't in fact eu only sent just 1 million az vaccines from Europe to uk..
The other 20million were pfizer

Sorry to link 2 article from express not my favourite newspaper but sometimes useful facts amongst the rhetoric.

But this is hilarious if true. well done Belgium they are maybe right to say the az vaccines should be redistributed to member states who will use them
Belgium has asked the eu for its az vaccines they found hidden in Italy..
They don't agree with az pause and want to vaccinate.
Apparently pausing at this moment in time would be irresponsible.
Greece also feels the same.
Now the hidden vaccines were initially told they uk thpolitic of Belgium covax.
Where are these 29million vaccines now.

www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1411654/astrazeneca-vaccine-suspension-belgium-eu-latest-news

Yes, they were certainly under a LOT of pressure this time last year. It actually makes me mad to see certain people just criticising it all now calling it “cronyism” from their armchairs, looking into their lovely garden’s pontificating on it all. What were they doing to help?
Having said that our critical press do play a role in keeping the government on their toes and helping to make things happen quicker so I am divided on that point!

Also agree the comfort and confidence in the NHS has helped us deploy a trusted and successful vaccine roll out. It has truly been flawless here. Lovely volunteers giving up their time, ethical doctors checking all the detail, quick delivery and most importantly general consensus that we can trust our scientists and doctors to make sound decisions.

There will be many studies on individual nation responses to vaccines, and the UK will prove to be a very interesting one indeed, when all the elements needed came together along with some excellent logistical organisation.

Even when France demanded all lorry drivers to be tested immediately and closed the ports, it was all set up at a moment's notice, the army were beyond amazing logistically rolling out a huge operation with no notice. It has been really heartening and comforting to see how good it all can be!

When it counted our army, our doctors and our country really showed their mettle and ability, I am truly grateful to all of them.

Yes, they were certainly under a LOT of pressure this time last year. It actually makes me mad to see certain people just criticising it all now calling it “cronyism” from their armchairs, looking into their lovely garden’s pontificating on it all. What were they doing to help?

Yes I agree. Every public facing person has been in the firing line through out. We’ve also had a false narrative between public = good and private = bad (although not including government for the good part).

When in reality a huge number of people worked in a hugely stressful time to get us through this.

I did the lock down part which I found hard enough but at least I can see the effort put in by others.

You can see the wrongness in the attack when you look at media around KB and even more so with the reactions on this site. She was lambasted for ages.

So is Greece 🇬🇷 and Belgium the only states in the block using az and with no age restrictions?

www.thenationalherald.com/archive_history_and_science/arthro/despite_side_effect_fears_greece_still_using_astrazeneca_vaccine-2008950/

Agree re. Testing. That is great now. Schools, hospitals, the lorry drivers etc and that is Dido Harding’s team ( and Dominic Cummings with his “moonshot”) but some media are still determined to create the impression T and T has failed.
Not in my opinion it hasn’t and I’m a testing expert now having used the system from its inception back in May.
Tracing is the hard part but many country struggles with that when numbers are high. That’s the price to pay for a less obtrusive system and I’m happy with that.

We are being tested daily as a family. Two secondary school kids, tested twice a week even throughout the holidays, I need to be tested twice a week due to college course - and dh needs weekly testing for his office.

The chances of us catching covid and not picking it up are now zero! Must be the same for many families across the country.