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Covid

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Can we please stop saying the vaccine does not reduce transmission?

424 replies

Frequentflier · 30/03/2021 10:35

It does. Plenty of evidence now out which everyone can find for themselves. edition.cnn.com/2021/03/29/health/pfizer-and-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-work-wellness/index.html

It is up to you to not take the vaccine if you don't want to. But please stop dressing it up as an unselfish choice if you have no conditions that stop you from taking it.

OP posts:
Frequentflier · 30/03/2021 17:17

@Bluntness100

I don't see how refusing the vaccine is uniquely selfish beyond anything else

No one said it was. Confused

And yes plenty of things are selfish, it’s not an exclusive unique club. One thing behind selfish doesn’t preclude anything else being and it’s not a competition. No one is grading it.

But we are in the midst of a global pandemic. Something that’s a likely once in a life time event. Something none of us have ever experienced before or hopefully will never again. The way out of it is vaccinations. And that relies on enough people getting it. To protect ourselves and each other, to allow society to resume normally, so when someone says “nah mate, not for me” but will happily resume normal life, and risk others then it’s selfish. If they say “nah mate” and stay home alone. Then that’s fine. But if they want to see friends, family, go to work etc, then it’s beyond selfish,

This.
OP posts:
Druidlookingidiot · 30/03/2021 17:25

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

I think everyone has experienced it in a different way. Having been inside a hospital and seeing people very sick and dying, not all of them very old, some even my colleagues, means I just have very little patience for deniers.

But I don't entirely lack sympathy with those who have suffered in other ways. Mental health impacts and impacts of delayed treatment I am definitely seeing firsthand too via hospitalisations

My kids haven't loved it but they haven't been destroyed by it. My friends son though looks likely to do much worse in his A levels than he was previously predicted as he didn't cope well out of school and that is a permanent effect in his life. My cousins kids started uni one last year and one this year so both of them have had a very shit time.

It's not that I am some kind of fan of lockdown I just think the alternative would have been worse which not everyone agrees but then again they weren't inside a hospital. In January the atmosphere was of barely concealed panic and the whole place was over run with COVID with staff dropping like flies.

Between the devil of an unrestricted COVID pandemic and the deep blue sea of lockdown is it any wonder I am pro mass vaccination as a way out of this? From my POV it seems just logical. I could see that from the very start and that's why I volunteered for the trial.

There's very few people it hasn't affected negatively in some way and it's sad to see that leading to division and not to uniting against adversity as it seemed like it would at the start.

I don't hate or even dislike anyone who chooses not to have a vaccine I just want people to make an informed decision in possession of correct facts.

I'm impressed with your patience. It feels like mine is all used up. I just can't believe the deniers peddling their untruths, it's so dangerous.

^Great post.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 30/03/2021 17:41

A really important distinction point to make about the protection afforded by vaccination. This is a general point, but one that is pertinent in the context of COVID-19.

I have seen much of the discussion about the protection afforded to the disease by vaccination as describing it in percentage terms. The numbers around the Pfizer and AZ vaccines are that 1 jab provides about 80% protection which then jumps to over 90% following the booster shot.

With the dialogue being such, it is easy to think that if you went from unvaccinated to 1 shot protected to, finally, 2 shot protected that you have gone from 0% protected, to 80% to 90% +. However, this is not the actual risk faced by you.

The risk to any individual without vaccination varies, but for most of the population under the age of 60, there was a much less than 1% chance of getting seriously ill and dying from COVID-19. Thus, the protection of 80% then 90% (following the first and second doses, respectively) is in terms of reduction of the already small risk that was posed.

The protection in percentage terms issued by the vaccine manufacturers relates to risk of serious illness versus placebo in the trials - not absolute risk. So, of course, the more vulnerable you were to COVID before vaccination, the greater the net effect on your overall protection is from the jab.

For those in the lowest risk groups I think that the argument about getting vaccinated absolutely is utilitarian in value - i.e. societal good. However, I do think this very important point about relative risk reduction is the best argument out there that opposes vaccine passports. Medical interventions (of which vaccines are undoubtedly one) have to be based on the tenet of informed consent. If liberty is restricted if ones choice is 'wrong' then it ceases to be a choice and, as such, genuinely informed consent.

From the outset the problem society has grappled with is being able to perceive and judge risk accurately. The age split in COVID-19 with respect of serious illness shows that as you get further and further down the age ranges, the 'obviousness' of the personal benefit of vaccination drops. The greater the % of the population are vaccinated, the lower the societal utility also becomes for the minority of unvaccinated to become vaccinated. This is precisely where the debate needs to be considered from when we consider whether this needs to be rolled out to children or not.

I offer these thoughts as someone who had their first vaccine - AZ - last week. I also encourage all adults to get the vaccine as the risk of adverse events is tiny when matched against the societal benefits - but, at the same time, we need to understand the risks we are dealing with here in real and tangible numbers.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 30/03/2021 17:43

@Devlesko

Those that don't want it have no choice really, no coercion by Lenny Henry or "Asian cricketer" is necessary, you will just have a shadow of a life and not able to do anything unless you have your golden vax certificate.
You’re talking as if vaccine passports are definitely going to happen and apply to everything. If they do I think it is far more likely they will be for just a few high risk activities many of which will give the alternative of having a test.
WanderingFruitWonderer · 30/03/2021 17:45

@XenoBitch I completely agree with your last post, especially about how sad all the division is.
Most of my friends are pretty balanced - not Covid deniers or lockdown breakers, but nor are they extreme pro-vaccine bullies. They accept personal choice. But when I go online, then whoosh! Such extreme opinions on both sides. I keep trying to stay offline these days, but keep feeling compelled to check stuff...
I also think there's loads of black & white thinking. An assumption that vaccine hesitant people must also be anti-lockdown, or the opposite way or whatever; when of course it's much more nuanced.
I never thought I'd see the day when I dare to meekly state that I'm not 100% certain about the vaccine for several reasons would leave me feeling bullied amidst aggressive allegations of selfishness. When I was seeking advice and support, and trying to be unselfish and responsible. That hasn't happened on this thread, but happened on another. I've seen far worse said to other people, on both sides, or in the middle like me. Not just on Mumsnet, but all over the place.
Yes, it's all very sad. Hopefully it'll be a distant memory one day, or better still forgotten...

Belladonna12 · 30/03/2021 17:46

@reformedcharacters

I think people are within rights to decline the vaccine but schools / GPs / shops / places of worship / pubs / airlines / the nhs are all also within their rights to tell you to piss off if you haven’t had the vaccine

Currently legally they are not within their rights at all.

Maybe next time if people are asked to sacrifice they will not be so willing.

Why do you think that? Private businesses such including shops, restaurants etc would legally within their rights to only admit vaccinated people.
winched · 30/03/2021 17:48

Why do you think that? Private businesses such including shops, restaurants etc would legally within their rights to only admit vaccinated people.

Pregnancy discrimination, for one.

Belladonna12 · 30/03/2021 17:53

@winched

Why do you think that? Private businesses such including shops, restaurants etc would legally within their rights to only admit vaccinated people.

Pregnancy discrimination, for one.

That's about the only thing at the moment and as they are likely to say that pregnant women can be vaccinated in the future, it won't be for long.
LyingWitchInTheWardrobe · 30/03/2021 17:53

Druidlookingidiot, there are many people who - for whatever reason - do not want to have the vaccine. It doesn't make them 'deniers' It is always the people with an agenda who harry and lecture others as to what they perceive should be done for x, y, z, reason.

This is just a chatboard, posters are not owed a debate or even a reason as to why people think or do differently and quite frankly, from what I've seen on this board of late, people are too angry (about myriad things) to actually listen and engage. They've also lost the capacity for rational or critical thinking and resort to diminishing or insulting posters with a different view. There's really no need for it, we're all under stress and pressure, nothing's back to normal and nobody needs this shouting on top of it all.

It's Brexit all over again; really angry people thinking that they can override and dictate what other people do. No. No they can't and the sooner everybody understands that other people have agency over themselves and their own lives, so much the better. People tend to run out of patience, energy and steam when they realise the futility of trying to get other people to bend to their will because they can't.

Nobody knows what is going on in anybody else's life so best not to make assumptions.

Bluntness100 · 30/03/2021 17:55

You’re talking as if vaccine passports are definitely going to happen and apply to everything.If they do I think it is far more likely they will be for just a few high risk activities many of which will give the alternative of having a test.

What do you consider high risk. pubs, restaurants, flying, and certain roles, from caring to working in people’s homes as likely to require it. There will be others, but they cover quite a lot already.

Frequentflier · 30/03/2021 17:55

@Devlesko

Those that don't want it have no choice really, no coercion by Lenny Henry or "Asian cricketer" is necessary, you will just have a shadow of a life and not able to do anything unless you have your golden vax certificate.
I don't see that Lenny Henry talking about the proven scientific benefits of vaccination is 'coercion' of any kind. This is exactly how polio and smallpox were eliminated the world over, by having health workers go into the poorest corners of the earth and talk about the benefits of vaccination. Some of them in Pakistan gave their lives for this.
OP posts:
reformedcharacters · 30/03/2021 17:58

Belladonna12

They can try but will swiftly find themselves in court for discrimination.

Bluntness100 · 30/03/2021 17:58

Op you’re correct, we have vaccines to thank for the elimination of many many viruses, but there will always be those walking amongst us who want everyone else to get it for them.

WanderingFruitWonderer · 30/03/2021 18:03

I LOVE your post @LyingWitchInTheWardrobe. Balanced, reasonable, insightful, humane, and very much needed, by those of us who are starting to feel very frazzled indeed. Thank you Smile

Belladonna12 · 30/03/2021 18:06

@reformedcharacters

Belladonna12

They can try but will swiftly find themselves in court for discrimination.

Not wanting to be vaccinated is not a protected characteristic.
XenoBitch · 30/03/2021 18:10

[quote WanderingFruitWonderer]@XenoBitch I completely agree with your last post, especially about how sad all the division is.
Most of my friends are pretty balanced - not Covid deniers or lockdown breakers, but nor are they extreme pro-vaccine bullies. They accept personal choice. But when I go online, then whoosh! Such extreme opinions on both sides. I keep trying to stay offline these days, but keep feeling compelled to check stuff...
I also think there's loads of black & white thinking. An assumption that vaccine hesitant people must also be anti-lockdown, or the opposite way or whatever; when of course it's much more nuanced.
I never thought I'd see the day when I dare to meekly state that I'm not 100% certain about the vaccine for several reasons would leave me feeling bullied amidst aggressive allegations of selfishness. When I was seeking advice and support, and trying to be unselfish and responsible. That hasn't happened on this thread, but happened on another. I've seen far worse said to other people, on both sides, or in the middle like me. Not just on Mumsnet, but all over the place.
Yes, it's all very sad. Hopefully it'll be a distant memory one day, or better still forgotten...[/quote]
@WanderingFruitWonderer I have seen the thread you mentioned and the posts in it. It seems that if you have a reason to either be hesitant, or planning to decline the vaccine, others see fit to judge your reason as not good enough even though they are not living your life or experiencing your anxieties. None of that is helpful at all.

reformedcharacters · 30/03/2021 18:10

Belladonna12

Your reason for not doing so might be.

1dayatatime · 30/03/2021 18:13

Reported on BBC today

The Covid-19 vaccine blocks pretty much all cases of serious illness - but the government has been much more cautious about saying whether it stops people carrying the virus and infecting others.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56514470

Bluntness100 · 30/03/2021 18:15

No they can't and the sooner everybody understands that other people have agency over themselves and their own lives, so much the better

Everyone does understand this, I don’t think anyone has said the vaccine should be mandatory have they ? Sorry if they have and I’ve missed it.

But accepting someone has agency over themselves does not mean you cannot also think their behaviour is selfish when they act solely in their interests and fail to take into account the wider society needs.

You can put your same argument to many other things. Speeding foe example. It’s your life. Its arguably your choice. But you risk other people’s lives when you do it. Just like you do when you don’t get the vaccine and still wish to integrate with those around you. There’s many many things you could argue peoole should be able to do, as they have agency over their own lives, but in reality their actions can endanger others.

Belladonna12 · 30/03/2021 18:16

@reformedcharacters

Belladonna12

Your reason for not doing so might be.

At the moment, only pregnancy is a reason and probably by the time everyone has had the opportunity to be vaccinated it will be recommended in pregnant women too.
reformedcharacters · 30/03/2021 18:20

Belladonna12

The nine protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010 are:

age;
disability;
gender reassignment;
marriage and civil partnership;
pregnancy and maternity;
race;
religion or belief;
sex;
sexual orientation

It would be quite difficult to prove it wasn’t a belief.

WanderingFruitWonderer · 30/03/2021 18:24

@XenoBitch thank you

Druidlookingidiot · 30/03/2021 18:34

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe

Druidlookingidiot, there are many people who - for whatever reason - do not want to have the vaccine. It doesn't make them 'deniers' It is always the people with an agenda who harry and lecture others as to what they perceive should be done for x, y, z, reason.

This is just a chatboard, posters are not owed a debate or even a reason as to why people think or do differently and quite frankly, from what I've seen on this board of late, people are too angry (about myriad things) to actually listen and engage. They've also lost the capacity for rational or critical thinking and resort to diminishing or insulting posters with a different view. There's really no need for it, we're all under stress and pressure, nothing's back to normal and nobody needs this shouting on top of it all.

It's Brexit all over again; really angry people thinking that they can override and dictate what other people do. No. No they can't and the sooner everybody understands that other people have agency over themselves and their own lives, so much the better. People tend to run out of patience, energy and steam when they realise the futility of trying to get other people to bend to their will because they can't.

Nobody knows what is going on in anybody else's life so best not to make assumptions.

Those who refuse the vaccine, for their own reasons, are they going to refuse treatment if they become sick? They should, as the doctors and nurses who have to care for them, would far rather they have the vaccine.

Is it right that those who refuse the vaccine, can potentially make others sick, or even die? Surely that's not okay?

If you don't want the vaccine, for your own reasons, then you should be prepared to live life as a hermit, to protect others.

Belladonna12 · 30/03/2021 18:37

@reformedcharacters

Belladonna12

The nine protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010 are:

age;
disability;
gender reassignment;
marriage and civil partnership;
pregnancy and maternity;
race;
religion or belief;
sex;
sexual orientation

It would be quite difficult to prove it wasn’t a belief.

The person suing would be the one having to prove or disprove . i.e they would have to prove that they were part of a religion that didn't agree with vaccination.
Frequentflier · 30/03/2021 18:41

@Druidlookingidiot I am perhaps too pro vax, as I have demonstrated in this thread, but I do not believe anyone should be refused NHS treatment, whether they have taken the vaccine or not. Everyone deserves treatment. As do smokers, drinkers, obese people and so on...

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